Just Fly The Aircraft - How to fly higher with Sarah Furness, former combat helicopter pilot & squadron leader

Wow what a conversation. It’s fascinating hearing former combat helicopter pilot & squadron leader, Sarah Furness, share her experience and learnings around how we can all fly higher. There are some great tips and reminders of how we can improve the way we work, starting with understanding our own minds.

Sarah tells us that we are never too old to learn, we can always train our brain. The conversation delves into some interesting topics including stress, focus, stretch and flow. Sarah tells us about Eustress which refers to positive stress, the opposite of distress. If we can stretch ourselves, we’re likely to find our flow to operate at our optimum state.

In a hectic work life of constant competing priorities, Sarah talks about the importance of unitask. We are not built to manage multiple tasks. Focus on one thing at a time and do it well.

“Focus on one thing – Fly the helicopter”

We may have mentioned a few times that Sarah is a best-selling author. You can find her book on Amazon here: Fly Higher: Train your mind to feel as strong as you look eBook : Furness, Sarah: Amazon.co.uk: Books

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Transcript

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Sam 0:10

Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders who want to help their companies execute faster. As usual, we're virtual. I'm at home in Bucks where the sun is shining. Vicky's over in Deepest Darkest Oxfordshire. Vicky, who have we got on the podcast today?

Vic 0:27

Hi, Sam. Well, today is slightly different for us because we have a podcast guest that I haven't met. And in fact, you have listened to her speak, and I believe she is a number one best-selling author. So I'm going to hand back to you.

Sam 0:42

Thank you very much, Vicky. So, yes, for the first time on the podcast, we have a number one best-selling author. She's just released a book. So today we have Sarah Furnace on the podcast. I came across Sarah at the talk I went to a little while ago with some of the old SoftCat crew who kindly invited this washed-up, retired old dude along with them. And Sarah was talking about flying faster, flying higher. And I just thought it was a really interesting conversation. I had a sort of a vested interest because she used to fly helicopters for a living, and my granddad worked on the early military helicopters. We didn't get to talk about helicopters, but we did get to talk about recording a podcast together. So I would like to introduce Sarah. Perhaps you could start, Sarah, by giving us a little bit of your history and your background. It's quite a quite a journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, hi Sam. Hi Vicky. Great to be on the podcast. And thank you for managing to get number one best-selling book twice into the introduction.

Sam 1:38

That makes it three.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

So yeah, so I started off life as a helicopter pilot. I did 21 years in the Air Force. So fairly recently, changed career, set up my own company, started out really coaching, actually, but then discovered a bit like you've just mentioned, Sam, that a lot of people were quite interested to hear about the helicopter stories. And I realized that I was sitting on quite a lot of skills that I'd been taught in the Air Force. But also I had a kind of unique vehicle to deliver the training because people tend to listen when you when you put helicopter in a sentence. So I was able to kind of I was able to share the sort of skills and techniques that I'd learned by telling stories about helicopters. And that's kind of how you found me in the um at that at the talk that you mentioned.

Sam 2:28

Exactly, exactly. So tell us a little about you, a bit about your book, because this is just out. I've just read it. What drove you to write it? What's in it? What's it all about?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

So what drove me to write it was I suppose there's a kind of moment, you know, none of us think that we're sort of good enough for what we do. We've all got imposter syndrome, blah, blah, blah. I'm sure we'll talk about that later. So, you know, everyone's got that, right? But there's a moment when someone says, How do you do what you do? Or, you know, can I have some advice? And you realize you've got some value to share with the world. And I think it was one of the first people I ever worked with was actually a GB boxer. And he came to me to be coached on mindfulness, you know, how to train the mind. And I'm thinking, what on earth does a boxer want to talk to me about, you know, this stuff? But he said, Well, you've been under threat, you've been in pressurized situations, and you've obviously dealt with it. So you must know what to do. So can you help me perform better in the ring? And I kind of realised actually, I do know how to do that. And so I started to reverse engineer, I suppose, all the things that I knew, my kind of bucket of knowledge and skills, and realized actually, people there are people out there that want to know this. And wouldn't it be great if I could put it all in a book that they could read and I could get it out to as many people as possible? The kind of secret agenda really is that I want everyone to feel as happy as possible and perform at their best. So that was kind of my own personal ambition. But I also realized that there was a kind of market for it and that people would probably be interested in what I had to say.

Sam 4:01

How's it going so far? How many copies have you sold? Is it going well? Are you pleased?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

I have no idea, but it does seem to be that you know there's quite a lot of interest in it. And I'm doing a lot of work with big organizations who are asking for lots of copies for their teams and their staff, which is great. Because as I say, my secret agenda is for people to feel happier. So hopefully lots of people are going to feel happier at the same time as being trained to perform better.

Sam 4:26

Certainly seems like it's resonating right now, and and the content seems to be not necessarily purely of the moment, but appropriate to where we are now post-COVID and all that kind of thing. So I'm sure we'll talk about it a little later. Um, so when I saw you talk at the event, you talked about just fly the aircraft, and you know that that resonated with me an awful lot. I think um, you know, your your observation really was that multitasking doesn't necessarily do anybody anybody any good, I think. Perhaps you could elaborate on that for us.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yeah, exactly that. Um I think it's very easy to assume that our success relies on our ability to multitask. We live in a world where it's expected, it's normal, it's almost championed. I was definitely of the kind of person I thought I I can multitask, I'm good at this, you know. I'm a I'm a I'm a mother, I'm a helicopter pilot, you know, I take all these boxes. So I think there's this big kind of myth at the moment that we've most of us have subscribed to that we can multitask and that we should be good at it. But actually, we're not designed to do that. And when I looked at the way that we were taught in flying training, I realized that we were being taught to unitask, to concentrate on one thing at a time and to prioritize what that one thing was. And it took me a while to sort of work that out because when you're going through flying training, they do throw a lot of injects at you, you know, much like most of us have now probably got various applications open right now, we've got various tech devices bleeping at us. So there's this expectation that we should be able to deal with lots of injects at the same time. But actually, the way we were trained in the Air Force was to prioritize what the most important thing was in that moment and focus on one thing at a time. And our mantra was fly the aircraft. Um, so I thought, well, it's a nice catchy phrase. If I could sort of get that out to the rest of the world, but actually, it all comes down to focusing on that one thing and working out what that one thing needs to be. You'll feel a lot better and you'll perform a lot better.

Sam 6:34

That makes sense. That makes sense, Vicki.

Vic 6:36

Yeah, no, I'm I'm fascinated by this topic because we recorded another podcast on the crisis of prioritization. So you know our audience is the tech industry. Yeah. And what we so you're talking about individuals and multitasking, but actually, one one of the big challenges that every organization they're trying to do too many things at once, and because they've got so many competing priorities, people are then or teams are set against each other, so they're competing against each other as well because they can't prioritize and they can't make a decision on what's the most important thing to do, and then they're wasting energy because they're trying to do too many things, and they're not getting the most important thing achieved.

Sam 7:14

They're spreading themselves thinly, I suppose, is the I've I've said it before on the podcast, but if you've got 27 priorities, you haven't got one. The bit that resonated particularly for me in the book about in that section was about people coming at you asking you to do things for them and just sort of politely pushing them back, maybe asking them to wait or come back at a time of your choosing rather than having to deal it, deal with it right there. And then, you know, in my soft cat days with umpteen salespeople asking for assistance, I had to be quite rigorous with that because if nothing else, it would have been unfair to stop what I'm doing, I was doing for somebody else to do some something for that person. So that's certainly something that's good learning for people, I think.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, definitely. I think I think there's two things. One is our culture is against us in some ways because we're being led into this culture where we because we can answer instantaneously, there's an expectation to. So the culture's not helping us, but also we're kind of born people pleasers. People always say, Oh, I'm a people pleaser. We're all people pleasers, you know, we all want to be liked, we all want to be approved of. So I think what's frustrating about it is that none of this is very instinctive. To unitask, we almost have to do the counterintuitive thing because our brains and society will lead us in the opposite direction. Um, but as you know, Vicky's just said, if we don't prioritize, we end up competing against each other, it creates distrust. You know, there's just so many reasons why it's really not helping us, but it takes quite a strong person to stand their ground and go, I actually need to focus my attention here right now. And learning how to do that whilst um not burning bridges is a skill. And I think that's a good place that we could be focusing our attention now is how do I guard my own priorities without unnecessarily upsetting other people.

Sam 9:01

That's it. You don't need to be rude to people in that scenario, but you do need to just sort of gently push back and and and put them into a time and space where you can deal with them. And that you're then doing a better job of helping them because you've got the time and the space and the focus to do that, I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Yeah, definitely. And I think what we can do is we can change the whole narrative around it. So rather than saying, no, I can't do that, you can say, look, I can see this is really important to you, and I want to give this the full attention that this deserves.

Sam 9:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

And I can do that at this time. So you are you're validating, you know, that it's important to them, you're you're showing their value to them, but you are standing your own ground and saying, I can do that at this time. And so what you're kind of communicating to them is you will get a better service from me when I can give you my full attention, which is at this time.

Sam 9:51

Precisely that. It's not a no, it's a not now. So you talk quite a lot in the book about imposter syndrome, um, something that Vicki might have mentioned occasionally on the podcast before and may well be known for giving talks on. Perhaps you could give us your view on this. I would give us your view as well.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Vicki has to say about this, because I think I might be about to propose a slightly different view. I think I guess the headline would be we've all got it, get over it in the nicest way possible. Um, you know, to experience self-doubt is a human condition. And I don't think it's bad either. You know, um in the flying world, we had this kind of we talked about the scale of competence. And when you start flying, you start off as unconsciously incompetent. You don't know how bad you are until you, you know, get into a cockpit. And then you go through this painful phase of conscious incompetence where you realize actually, I need to learn this. And I think that's what imposter syndrome is. We're just misselling it because if you've got imposter syndrome, I agree. You've got a healthy respect for the people around you. What's wrong with that? Why do we have to just tell ourselves that we're broken, that we need to cure this? Why can't we just lean into it and go, brilliant, there are other people around me that know what they're doing. Maybe I can learn from them.

Vic 11:08

I love that concept. You've you've summed that up so succinctly. I think I've I've been known to say if you haven't, if you don't suffer a little bit from imposter syndrome, you've got too big an ego. I think you need to leave the room. Yeah, yeah, but it is, we're all just we are just learning and actually realizing that everybody suffers from it. I think I'd not heard of the term Sarah at all until we recorded a podcast with the former CEO of Citrix, uh Mark Templeton, and he talked about him having imposter syndrome when he was promoted to CEO. So in this big job and not feeling like he had to he could ask for help and that um he needed to have all the answers himself. And once he realized that he didn't and he could ask for help, he flew, but he couldn't, he couldn't until he'd actually got demoted, gone through the pain, and then got re-promoted into the role again. I can see why there's a positive intent there.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

You know, it's kind of saying, look, you know, here's a label that we can give that insecurity, that self-doubt, and therefore it's okay, you know, you can call it something, and you feel that sigh of relief that goes, Oh, thank goodness it's not just me. But if that's then a reason to stay stuck and go, Well, I can't do it because I've got imposter syndrome, then that's not really helping us. So I think it's important we can have the conversations, but then the next thing is, so what? You know, what is it? What can I learn? Yeah, yeah.

Sam 12:33

Yeah. To me, it's almost your brain's way of keeping you sharp. Because if you feel like you're an imposter, you know you've got to work at it. Whereas to Vicky's point earlier, you know, if you haven't got imposter syndrome, you're probably it's probably something slightly slightly crazy about you. You know, if if you haven't got it, well, you just kind of breeze through it and you don't prepare properly, or you don't train properly, or you don't do the the pre-work that you need before the big presentation. Because if you've got imposter syndrome, you're actually working at it.

Vic 13:02

But what I hadn't thought about until Sarah just said it then is it's okay, I've got it, what am I going to do about it? And having that attitude, which is really a gross mindset, is it? Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Sam 13:15

One other assertion that resonated with me in reading the book was your your um your statement that we're all a little bit fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

I love that.

Sam 13:25

And I reckon, I reckon you may well be correct. You know, we're all products of our experiences, aren't we? And those experiences are not always 100% perfect.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

So and I think, yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm glad that you swore first. Um, yes, we are, but it doesn't mean we're broken or that we need to be fixed. Um, you know, we go through childhood. Um, interesting statistic, or truth is that our brains are still developing till our mid-20s. So all of these childhood disappointments and you know, things that you can remember, not getting picked for the lacrosse team or being dumped by you, whatever, all that stuff. That's all forming, you know, these kind of things they're called hyperinvestments, i.e., we get afraid of failure or afraid of rejection. So the point is that everyone's got some baggage. We all get into adulthood thinking, you know, oh my goodness, it's gonna happen again. And and that doesn't mean we're broken, it doesn't mean we have to go back and do loads of therapy to unpick why we're so messed up. It's just a fact. And I think again, it's like we're all a bit fucked up, get over it, move on. Um, and the point is that when you kind of stop wrestling with that and stop trying to fix something that doesn't mean fixed, then you can focus your attention on something that's you know going to serve you better. Like, um, you know, for example, you can focus on something that nourishes you, or you can focus on something that improves you, or you know, something that makes you laugh rather than being obsessed about why am I so messed up, if you see what I mean.

Sam 14:48

So the getting forward looking rather than backward looking.

Vic 14:51

There's a theme that I can really hear, and you said this as you started, it's about being happy. And I love that that's that's the core of what you do.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Yeah, absolutely. I think you know, we're we're so good at kind of beating ourselves up, aren't we? And thinking that we have to be ex in order to be happy. But what if we could just say, Well, I am ex, I'm gonna be happy, you know.

Sam 15:10

Yeah, this is this is me, take me or leave it, leave me. You know, I guess at the grand old age of 46, I ain't gonna be changing much from here on in. So I'll just get on with it. And I like that. I like that. Yeah. And probably my favorite bit of the book was, and this is something that really stuck in my mind from your talk, actually, was your train hard, fight easy philosophy, which I guess means kind of put put the hard yards in when you're practicing, and when you get into the moment of actually doing whatever it is that you do, uh, you should in fact, if in theory, find it a whole lot easier. I'm trying to engender that mindset into my daughter who takes her GCSEs next summer. Vicky, you'll be in a broadly similar sort of situation fairly soon as well. Work hard now, and the exams will be a whole lot easier when you get there. Have you got any advice for me? Or maybe more importantly for her?

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Well, yeah, I mean, actually, I would say, you know, you said, Oh, I'm 46, I probably won't change. If you don't want to, fine, but actually the brain's amazing and it never stops growing. So uh, if you if you want to, you can. There's there's no um upper age limit to training your brain. Um, so it does apply equally well to whether you're three years old or whether you're 100 years old, and that is that um, you know, we have this expectation again that we're born with natural talents or what we're good at something or we're not, or we're born cool under pressure. And I'd love to be, you know, as a helicopter pilot, I'd love to think that I'm just naturally cool under pressure. It's a load of rubbish. It was something that I learned to do, you know, over and by doing it over and over and over and over again. And also, yeah, so repetition, really important. But the other thing is the train hard element. So it's about putting yourself into a bit of stretch because that's when we perform our best. And what you want to do is is repeatedly have peak performance experiences, and you do that when you're a little bit uncomfortable. And again, I think there's this narrative out there right now that oh, you know, we shouldn't be stressed, we shouldn't be lonely, we shouldn't be anxious, we shouldn't have imposter syndrome. Actually, all of those things, a little bit of discomfort is actually where we do our best learning. And the more we do it, then the more easy it is when you know you're actually in crisis and you need to reel out a kind of under fire, as it were.

Sam 17:23

I've said before on the podcast that I don't think short-term stress is necessarily bad for you. You know, it's it's long-term grinding, chronic stress that's painful, but a s you know, a sprint to get a job done or to finish a project or you know, to do something, I don't think is necessarily a bad thing.

Vic 17:40

It's it's challenging your brain, isn't it? So I was challenged by one of our clients to deliver a new course on change management, and I had to go and learn a whole new set of content. Actually, it was um it was based on the book Switch, which was recommended to us by Darren Fay, the podcast guest from Google that we have on the and it's a framework around change management, and I was absolutely fascinated by it, and I've really learned it. But I started the training with these guys, going, guys, you need to know I'm going to be better in two hours' time when we've got through this first section because I'm a little bit nervous here because it's the first time I'm doing it. But I really appreciate the fact you challenged me to do this for you. And actually, we use a piece of software called Beacon Force, which measures intrinsic motivation. And part the seven pillars of intrinsic motivation, and one of them is that you're feeling challenged, that you feel like you're learning something new. And if you do that and you feel like you're growing, you will stay motivated. So, does that make sense to you?

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, you know, a little bit of um, I mean, people often think of stress as wholly negative. Actually, technically, positive stress is called eustress, and the stress we refer to as distress, most people just call it stress. But there is, you know, there's an optimal amount of cortisol we can have in our body, uh, which actually creates a peak performance. Um, and then you know, obviously, when you kind of go over the top and go into panic, that's not great. But stretch is good for us, and we do learn, we do learn well and perform well um when we're in stretch. I've not heard that before. So, what was it called? Use use stress. Use stress, I think it's Greek, and it comes and it's basically positive stress. Um, I'm careful about trying to sell stress as something that's good because, like you say, long-term stress are really not good for us, and we don't perform better when we're stressed, but we do perform better when we're in stretch. Right.

Sam 19:34

That makes sense. Got to read the book for more.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Yeah, well, it I I think I go into it in chapter two or three about because we spend a lot of time studying stress as pilots, and you know, there's a real there's a moment when your performance does dip off.

Sam 19:47

So you do need to understand, you know, how sweet spot because it was sort of if you want to stay in that sort of on the upward slope just before peak stress, which was the optimum point.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, exactly that. And we would, you know, you don't even want to perform at the top of the curve because you want to give yourself a bit for mum, as it were. So you give yourself a little bit extra that you can go just in case you get that inject, but you're just sort of sitting there, kind of in that peak performance, you know, what people most people call stretch or um that sweet spot when you kind of you know, yeah. Most of most people will kind of recognize it when they're there, and it's just recognizing that that's actually quite a good place to be.

Sam 20:25

Yeah. I wonder if there's a correlation between stretch or youth stress and um and kind of fl pushing you into flow state in a way.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

I was just wondering that. Yes. Chapter four, play hard, fight, easy. They they did studies on concert pianists and you know, uh Olympic athletes and also pilots. Um, and these are all people who, in theory, their profession revolves around them being able to operate under pressure and be able to operate well under pressure. But what they found was that they were actually really good at handling um stress, and it wasn't because they were used to it, it's because by operating in flow, which is when you're in your sweet spot, you actually increase your resilience to stress. So you actually get less flappable, but it's about finding the sweet spots. Um, and they've and they and also the other thing was they were all doing things they love doing. So the actual the goal play to solution is do something that you find optimally challenging that you enjoy doing, and you're training your brain when you're in peak performance. So it could be playing tennis, it could be playing piano, you know, play whatever chess, you know, but it's something that you find optimally challenging and you enjoy. That's flow, and that has been proven to increase our stress resilience.

Vic 21:41

That's really fascinating. And sorry to uh to hop on about it. I was not expecting to talk about this at all, but the the app I was sending you about beacon force, being bored to performance, to flow, to stress, and yeah, it shows when you're in that. And so what you've just described there helps me understand flow, and flow is Very narrow on the chart because it but what the way you've just described being there and how that enables you almost to be a little bit more resilient to stress. Did I did I just get that right? Yeah, exactly right. It makes sense, yeah, absolutely makes sense, fascinating.

Sam 22:17

And it feels bloody wonderful when you hit that flow, doesn't it?

Vic 22:20

It doesn't, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

We're all happier and performing better.

Sam 22:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when when when uh in my soft cat days going out and and talking to customers, you know, when you're in in the moment and you're presenting and it just all goes, or playing in bands, once you've got to the point where you you know your your fingers are just doing doing the work and you're just kind of in the moment and looking at the audience and everything's happening, and it's just it's just an amazing moment. Yeah, kind of cool.

Vic 22:50

Yeah. Well, I I was really nervous delivering this workshop last week because it was the first time I'd done it. It was new content, and I and the team, my team that I work with have really prepped me for it. And actually, Sarah, one of the things I talk about when I talk about imposter syndrome is the way that I get over imposter syndrome is to surround myself with a great team. I it I don't have to have all the answers together for teamwork because that's what we're about at the Amplified Group. But I I finished delivering these first two hours and I came off the corner and I went, I've really enjoyed that. And I get paid for doing this. How marvelous is that? I felt very lucky. Yes.

Sam 23:27

It's all good, it's all good. Well, I think um we should probably start bringing the episode to a close. So perhaps, Sarah, you you would be kind enough to give us uh three key takeaways. We always ask our guests for some snippets of wisdom towards the end, if that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yes, absolutely. And I'm conscious, like you say, your listeners are in the tech industry. So I wrote these down. Um, I think the number one thing I would say to everyone, but I think it is particularly relevant for tech, is that we always have a choice. And it probably feels like we might not, because we're constantly being having our attention diverted by lots of different devices, and we might feel a kind of obligation. But no matter what is going on, we can always choose how we respond to what is happening in our life. Um, and I think the the other one that I would say is the sort of train hard, fight easy. So, my thing is fly the aircraft, focus on one thing and choose that one thing. Actually, by doing that, you are training hard, fighting easy. Because let's face it, the world isn't really geared up for unitasking because we've we're so used to having our attention all over the place. So, actually, just committing to unitasking, you are going to be training hard. And most people say, Well, I just can't do it, it's just too difficult, there's too much going on, and they give up. But they're missing an opportunity to train hard, fight, easy. So please don't be put off by the fact that this might sound like quite a difficult thing to do. It is the juice is worth the squeeze. We train hard, we fight easy, we keep going, and then one day you'll wake up and you'll realize that what you used to find hard, you find easy, and someone will ask you the question, how do you do it? Because you've turned them, yeah.

Vic 25:11

You've turned it into a habit. Yeah, exactly. And then it doesn't take as much energy.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly. That so um, so that would be kind of I think I just went for two because they're sort of melded in. But that's what I would say, you know, particularly to people who are leading in tech, um, is that we don't have to be, you know, it's great that you're doing what you're doing, but you don't have to be slave to it. You can still make choices that serve you and the people around you.

Sam 25:37

Makes sense. Perhaps the third takeaway could be buy the book.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah.

Sam 25:43

So we should we haven't actually we actually we haven't actually given our listeners the title of the book, where they can find it, where they can buy it from, where they can find more information. Perhaps we should give you the opportunity for a quick shameless plug.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, okay. Number one Amazon bestseller. How many times have you said that now? Um it's called Fly Higher, and it is available in all good bookstores. Amazon's probably the easiest place to go pick one up. Um, if you want to order bulk copies or uh want to get a signed copy, that's also possible. Just come to my website, Sarah, at Sarahfurnace.com and send me an email and we'll sort all that stuff out for you.

Sam 26:22

And we'll we'll put that stuff in the show notes as well, as usual.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yes.

Sam 26:26

Brilliant.

Vic 26:26

We will do.

Sam 26:28

And we've got one last question for you. Oh no, actually, Vicky's this is your question. Sorry, yes, it is.

Vic 26:34

So on the last series of uh Get Amplified, we were asking our uh guests to recommend a book. So we're not going to do that because we've we've covered the book. But on the previous series, we were asking about Team X, and Team X is what we describe as team experience. So in the tech industry at the moment, there is so much around customer experience and user experience. Well, to us, what work feels like when you don't want to leave a team is is great team experience and great teamwork. And I just wondered with your background, what great team experience means to you.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah, so again, I think what I've got to say around this might not be what you might expect because I actually think that great team experience comes from starting with the individual. And it goes a little bit against the military ethos, which was like there's no I in team, etc. etc. But actually, I think good teamship and good leadership comes from understanding the human condition, and you've got a wealth of knowledge right here, you know, your own mind. So if you can understand what's going on in your heads, although we're all wonderfully different, we're also all human. And I think it's a brilliant starting point for understanding what's going on with other people. And I bet you that whatever it is that you're afraid of, whatever it is that you don't want to say, or whatever it is that you're secretly annoyed about, is probably what other people are feeling and thinking too. So starting with ourselves and understanding ourselves is a brilliant way to understand other people and have more empathy for what's going on because we often imagine we're the only ones going through an experience. My experience is that actually most people are going through the same thing. So we can use our experience to understand others.

Vic 28:21

Yeah. And and actually, although that's what you've described, when the workshops that we do are around building great team experience, and but we do start with the individual and we start about understanding ourselves, and we use disk to do that, the psychrometric tool disc, so that if you can understand yourself and then you can understand your teammates, then you know how to relate to each other, and that's how we start to build trust. Yeah. And that there's no wrong or right place to be. You've got some people that are quiet and some people that are more dominant, and yet everybody's got an opinion, everyone's got thoughts, and it's just giving everybody the opportunity to speak up. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:58

And I think the opportunity to speak up, you can say it's safe to speak up, but uh but I think again, one of the best ways to do that is to just be the first one that speaks up because we you know think about the way that you know our children copy us, or when you're growing up and you go, I'll never do what my parents did, but we all end up just turning into our parents, and that shows us just how powerful um leadership by example is. Yeah, if we want people to speak up, go first. That's how we create inclusivity, is you go first and you you demonstrate the behaviours that you want other people, and they will because we all like to we all like to fit in.

Vic 29:36

Yeah, no, that that totally makes sense. That one of the the pieces of work that we do is we get um the teams to share some of their personal histories, and and we ask the leader to go first, and we've always prepped the leader on the more vulnerable you are, will set the tone for how the conversation goes. And it absolutely does every time. The more that the leader will share what they've experienced, the more open the team are. And yet, if the tea if the leader is quite closed in what they're saying to start with, that's how so it they absolutely set the tone. So yeah, totally makes sense. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. Thank you for advancing the book off.

Sam 30:15

Really interesting. I enjoyed exploring some of the stuff that you touched on in your in your talk and in your book. Really fascinating. So uh it just remains for me to say, first of all, to our listeners, go by the book. And secondly, thanks for listening to this episode of Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. As always, your comments and your subscriptions are gratefully received.