The best kept business secret. The formula for team work.

On this episode of  Get Amplified, Sam finds out more from Vicky and Sia  on the best kept business secret, the five behaviours of a team, discovering the simple and pragmatic formula for team work.  You will hear about Microsoft as a case study, how the formula works and  tips on how to get started with it.

It’s just us three chickens this time - enjoy!

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Transcript

Sam 0:10

Welcome to Get Amplified, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders covering topics from keeping up with the pace of change, staying fulfilled in your role and looking out for the well-being of your team and of course yourself. This podcast is brought to you by the Amplified Group. So as I say every time we're virtual, I'm back home in Buckinghamshire. This occasion a slightly different location because I've finally managed to sort my study out. So I'm sitting in there rather than at the kitchen table, which makes a pleasant change. Vicky's in deepest darkest Oxfordshire, and Char's over in the Netherlands. So, Char, who's our guest for today?

Sia 0:43

Well, I was just going to ask you if you could guess where I was because I'm always in the same damn place. So, guess who our guest is today? Let me think. It's us. It's us. So it's just us three chickens today. So uh yeah, we are recording something slightly different today. We're going to hit on one of our very favourite topics, which is the five behaviours of a cohesive team. And as we we kind of mentioned this previously in another podcast that we did, we really wanted to dig a bit deeper on it because we didn't want to take too much time away from our guests. Um we thought this one we would just have the three of us and we would just give a little bit more detail, uh, you know, how we apply it and we deliver it. And and really the most important thing is, you know, what what uh the business impact is of this fantastic model. So um with that, I think that we would just you know fall into a bit of a chat and uh and explain how this whole thing works.

Sam 1:41

Yeah, good, good, good time to step out of the uh the routine of guests. Podcast is going really well. I think we're really pleased with the number of listeners we picked up and we've had some great responses. So keep hitting that subscribe button, keep carrying on with joining us on our on our journey as we uh as as we get on with this podcast. I hope you'll still enjoy it. So so why is this five B's thing important then?

Vic 2:02

Okay, um I'm gonna have a go at answering that one. So when we work together, when we go on training at work, when we're learning the skills, when we're learning about a new product, that that's that's what we tend to focus on. What we don't focus on is how to work together, and actually, we probably haven't had any conscious training on that since we were probably at primary school, and and it's a it's it's such uh an important piece. If you know, I was talking to a guy earlier and he's just changing jobs, and and he'd phoned me to see if I knew of any opportunities that were available, and the first thing he started doing was describing the culture of the type of company he wanted to work at. He didn't say I want to work in the security industry or uh or I want to work in the channel industry, he talked about I want to work in an organization where I can feel like I can make a difference, where everyone gets on, where there isn't any politics, and and it's becoming more and more apparent that that is what organizations need to be more effective, to give them that advantage. And if I think about my own experiences and how much time I spent on manoeuvring and the politics and figuring out how to get people on the same page versus just getting on and getting the job done and meeting customers, it's about productivity. And so, if we can understand how to more effectively work together and how to do that, and on a previous podcast, we mentioned about Simon Sinek and the fact that he describes this wonderful place of work and where where there's high trust um and everybody has a purpose and they understand their why. Yeah, but he doesn't tell you how to get there. Why we love the five behaviors of a team from Patrick Lenzioni is it's practical and it's pragmatic. And Microsoft describe it as the operating system for teams, and you know, Sam. Wow, they know they know a bit about operating systems, don't they?

Sam 4:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do, they do. And they've been through quite a bit of cultural change over the last few years, I suppose, in the in the Satya era.

Vic 4:31

Yes, they have, and and we we can talk about that, and that you know, if you think this stuff is soft, you only need to read the first five pages of Satya Nadella's book. And he says his primary role is the curator of culture.

Sam 4:53

Yeah, that's certainly something that was apparent in my experience at SoftCat, in that that was our focus par excellence as a leadership team, because if you get the culture right, everything else follows. There's a great quote. There's a a guy called um Peter Drucker, and his quote is culture eat strategy for breakfast. And I love I love that phrase. I love that phrase. You know, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean don't have a strategy, you know. We certainly did have our strategy in place at SoftCat. Yeah, it's fairly simple, so everybody could get behind it, but we were very clear that what drove our business was the culture.

Vic 5:34

But it's it's interesting even now that you say um culture eats strategy for breakfast. If you think of actually what is strategy and what does strategy mean, strategy is just a set of conscious business decisions. So if you have a conscious decision that you're going to have and you're going to build a high trust culture, then that's part of the strategy.

Sam 6:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The two are in interlinked and interlinked.

Vic 6:07

They are, they are. But just just to go back, um, I've got a little story actually about Microsoft that I've just thought of. So in in that book where Satya talks about him being the curator of culture, he starts by saying that when he first started in the role, a cartoonist had drawn a cartoon of all his BU leaders holding guns up against each other, and all the BUs were working as silos. Now let's just fast forward that into um a business reality context. So back in 2002, I owned the relationship between Microsoft and Citrix, and at the time um I had a tablet from HP, and it was an amazing tablet that had a pen, and that pen felt like you were writing on paper. It was awesome. It and and I've I've got, thanks to you and seeing you on a plane with an iPad Pro, I now have yeah, thank you.

Sam 7:21

I gave you little training courses, I recalled.

Vic 7:23

You did, I know it was two years ago. No, more than that.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Yeah, it must be at least three years ago, yeah.

Vic 7:29

It's gotta be more than that. Actually, we've been doing the amplified group for longer than that. So, any anyway, the pen that I had for my iPad Pro is nowhere near as good as the pen that I used in 2002 with Microsoft. Now that pen was created by an incubation BU within Microsoft, and at that time the Office Group BU was king, and they couldn't use that pen with Office or Word in Word or Excel. They they it was no sorry, you know, who are you? You might be part of Microsoft, yeah. These silos and the silos, so Microsoft had that ability and technology all that time ago, and yet because of the silos, they weren't able to because the team take advantage of it. Yeah, and and now with Satya and what he's done and the way that he's broken down those silos, and and what he did to start with, he got his leadership team to reconnect as human beings. That that that's his words in his book, that's what he said, and he takes them through an exercise where they start to understand each other better. And actually, if we look at the five behaviors, that's where we start, and that exercise is is exactly where we start. So, this isn't soft stuff, you know, they're a trillion-dollar business.

Sam 8:57

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, we were talking about it before before we started the recording. We were talking about it being really stuff that you learn and pick up over the years and understand intuitively and giving it some language. Um, is it worth maybe drilling into which you know what what the five B's actually are?

Vic 9:20

Yeah, so let's let's just have a very quick overview of them and then perhaps we can drill into them in a in a bit more detail. So, so it starts with trust, that's the foundation for everything. And I've said this on a couple of um podcasts before, but it's vulnerability-based trust. So, what we mean by that is it's a safe enough place for you to say what you really think, for you to be able to ask for help, for you to say, I've made a mistake, let's learn from it. So, so that's what we mean by trust. And if you've got that type of trust, then you're able to have robust debate and conflict. If you can have conflict and everybody feels like they have said what they really think, then they're much more likely to commit to the decision. Even if the decision doesn't go their way, they're much more likely to commit to it. And if they commit to it and you've got clarity of what they're committing to, then you can hold each other accountable. And if you hold each other accountable and you have that accountability, then it leads to having collective results. Those are the five behaviors, and you know, none of those words you will will be new to you, then they're they're not new, they're not rocket science, but it's the way that you actually bring them to life and put them into action and how they relate to each other on the fourth level accountability. When we work with our clients, that's usually the one that has the most challenge and is the most difficult to work in. But we don't start there, you have to start back with trust because you you have to have the whole model working for it to be effective.

Sam 11:08

Yeah, yeah. So this is not just fluffy stuff, this is a process that you go through. Is it something that you would do with an entire company, or would you start with a team, or or would what would the process normally be?

Vic 11:22

Absolutely, it is going to be more effective if you can do it top down and through the entire organization. However, we are realistic and pragmatic, and it may be that you just do it within your team to start with, or a particular team, and you know, we've all got experiences of knowing that the team that we're in is a really great place to be, and loads of people want to join that team because it's like the most fun place in the company to be in. So you can still have pockets within an organization where you can have a great team spirit, and so if you have to start there, then you can do that, and we certainly do work with clients that do that, and actually, we find that we go and do that, we can demonstrate results from it, and then we can take it to other areas of the organization and up the chain to the top in most cases too.

Sia 12:25

One of the things that I say, Vic, is that if somebody asks me, Oh, can you only do this with an intact team, which means a team that are all reporting to the same management level, I say, no, you can do it with an intact team and just one team, but you can also think about it as you think that there is a a person underneath the management, but then also there might be a team that's not an intact team, but it's a purpose, and it's a much bigger group of people, but they're all working towards the same purpose. So there might be engineering in there, there might be systems engineers, there might be marketing, there might be sales, but they're all working towards the same purpose.

Vic 13:04

I mean, one of the organizations that we work closely with is the Chartered Institute of Project Management. Um, and project management is now, I think it's now the third largest job role in the UK. They recognize people come together and then they go. It talks at kind of lends itself to what you were talking about earlier with um having a common purpose. You have a common goal and then you move back into your um disparate teams again.

Sam 13:34

Well, organisations are not necessarily subscribed to the classic command and control sort of leadership style these days, and rightly so. You know, there are many more dotted lines and virtual teams and things. So it strikes me that this stuff is just as important across that sort of scenario as it is within what what you refer to as an intact team.

Sia 14:09

And something Vicky mentioned there made me smile because when when she was talking about, oh you know, people recognize that great team, people recognise that team that's having fun.

Sam 14:19

That that makes a big difference. It it is massively important. You know, you're a long time at work, so if you don't enjoy it, it's a bit of a shame, really.

Vic 14:28

I was with a client a few weeks ago, and this particular client said uh I don't come to work to make friends. What a shame. To your point, you know, exactly, you know, life is too short to be at work to not make friends. The the the power of what we had at Citrix and what you described at Safka and how many friends and lifelong friends that we've made.

Sia 14:57

Yeah, yeah. I was shocked when you told me that. And I when I think of the friends I have now, most of them came out of and were born out of work.

unknown 15:06

Yeah.

Sam 15:06

So I kind of went the other way in that I ended up um with quite a few of my friends drinking the soft cat Kool-Aid, I suppose, as they call it, and coming and joining us.

Vic 15:18

Yeah.

Sam 15:18

So it's kind of funny. Kind of funny.

Vic 15:22

It's it's what we use for recruitment into amplified as well, if you haven't noticed.

Sam 15:27

Yeah, so it would appear. So Vicky, you said earlier that you were gonna uh dig into the trust thing a little bit in a little bit more detail, particularly the vulnerability-based trust.

Vic 15:42

Yeah, so um, and I think this is probably one of the hardest ones for people to to work with, and it is because once you start getting into conflict and robust debate, then then it starts it starts to feel a little less soft, if if that makes any sense at all. So when you're talking about vulnerability-based trust, what we look at, and actually one of the things that we like, and we are gonna drill into this a bit further on, is we like the fact that it's measurable. And I'm gonna quote Microsoft again because, as I say, they are a case study for this methodology. So not only do they describe it as an operating system for teams, but they say at Microsoft we like metrics, and what what the five behaviors gives us is it turns opinion into fact because we can measure trust. So, what it does is it enables you to measure trust, and we're not measuring trust in the predictive sense. So I know that Vicky's gonna turn up when she says she's gonna turn up because she's done that in the past, or I can rely on her to get this thing done because she's done that in the past, or I'm predicting that. It is that vulnerability where we let our guard down, and that's ultimately what it is. So, one of the things that we measure is can we admit our weaknesses to one another? And if you can do that, and if you can show that, my goodness, that builds so much trust because people can also let their guard down, then and then if you've got that and you've got that trust and that relationship between you, and in fact, um, one of the things that's really popular in California at the moment is radical candor, and they talk about radical candor, but they also say you have to have a depth of relationship to start with, you have to have that trust, and and that it's knowing that people care. I think that's really where we're going with it.

Sia 17:47

I I think what I'd like to add in there, you know, when we talk about something being measurable, what I can only say is that you know, we also like Microsoft at Amplify Group, we're we're also the same, we're business people, so therefore we want to measure things. We want to make sure that we can prove to our clients afterwards this worked. And and you know, I can only go back to one client that is fairly recently. They did a comparison report from when they first started with Five Behaviors to now, and they showed that all of the teams that increased with trust, specifically with trust, they really went from either a red or an amber to a green, they were increasing and they had better business results. And I'm not talking about a small amount, I'm talking about, in one case, 33% increase in business. So it is not fluffy at all. It absolutely proves that by understanding the behaviours of other people you work with and how you can make that uh more effective, impacts the business as well. It's incredible. And the more that we've been doing this, the Amplify Group, you know, you said earlier a couple of years, we've been doing this now nearly three years, we've really seen that this has had a massive impact on business. So it makes me feel good because I'm the sceptical one, right? I'm the one that's the cynic, and I'm the one that says, Oh goodness me, you know, uh how is making myself vulnerable and saying that I'm not very good at something going to help me in a work situation, but it jolly well does because then you open yourself up to somebody else saying, Well, actually, I'm I'm I I recognise that in you, and I'm a bit the same.

Sam 19:31

Or or alternatively, I'm the flip side of your coin, and between us we'll we'll make a magnificent team.

Vic 19:36

Yeah, as you described previously as well, Sam. We're interesting. Yeah.

Sam 19:43

I mean, you know, I I I'm as with you, Shah, I'm a a big skeptic when it comes to sort of management training and jargon and all of that, but this stuff is just so logical and it chimes so clearly with my kind of real-world experience. Uh and I was lucky because I ended up working really the entirety of my my career thus far in a magnificent organization that lived this stuff. Um I'm not sure we necessarily talked about it in these terms, but it just makes sense to me.

Sia 20:16

Yeah. And and whilst you were lucky to have that kind of inbuilt, natural way of managing, leading, or working in the team, and it was a great team, other people just need, like we've said before, just to bring it to the conscious. And having a framework, the five behaviors is a framework, you know, I see it like that. And as Vicky said earlier, you know, what what the process is, is our operating system for teams. It's really a framework that helps guide you through that, and and it can have a massive difference in just accelerating stuff, right? Whereas a project might not be working and you're stuck and you don't know how to, you know, say to your peers, I can I'm holding you accountable, this this bit's not working. With this, you can just accelerate it.

Sam 21:04

So we've probably done uh trust uh one of the bits that I wanted to drill into is this concept of conflict. Um, you know, because I think we automatically think of conflict as something negative, but through getting it right, we're really talking about changing it and making it positive, is that right?

Vic 21:24

Yes, it is, and actually we call it productive conflict.

Sam 21:28

Right.

Vic 21:28

So let's start by by just introducing the conflict continuum. So if you imagine uh a continuum and on the left hand side, imagine you're in a meeting, and everybody is sat around the table and they're all nodding their heads going, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then they come out of the meeting and they go, Oh well, that was a waste of time. We still haven't got to these points. Or we started to raise that point, we we started to get a bit uncomfortable, and then we moved on to the next topic. We airbrushed it the way that we Define that is called artificial harmony. And actually, if you don't have these heated debates in meetings, then it's artificial harmony in that room, and then you come out, and then there's unrest, and people walking up and down the corridors and moaning and people and and and it festers.

Sam 22:16

So it causes sort of back biting and infighting.

Vic 22:20

It does, that goes on and on and on. And this is where part this is how politics breeds. So if you've got artificial harmony on one side, and then on the other side of the continuum, you've got where it's disrespectful and people are rude to one another and and it's really unpleasant. That's not where we want to be. But what tends to happen is people will start to get uneasy in their meeting, and then they'll say, It's starting to get uncomfortable, we're gonna stop. Or they'll start to think if it's getting uncomfortable, they're gonna end up in that disrespectful place. What you actually want to do is you want to be able to work in the middle, and and part of what we do is we teach people how to work in that middle, and how we define it as mining for conflict. In fact, I did it last night at a at a governor's meeting. There was somebody sat there really quietly and they needed to speak, and I could see that they needed to make their point, and it was this is good, this is good, have this heated debate because what you're trying to do is you're trying to get to the best outcome for the business. And if you've done that and you've had that heated debate, and everybody around the table, irrespective of what their disc style is or their personality type is, if they've all weighed in, they're much more likely to then do the next level, which is to commit to the decision, get behind what the consensus is. To get behind it, and and it's and it's funny, the research shows, and these these assessments that we do have been done by half a million people. So this isn't you know just uh a small number of people that have done this, but these assessments show that even if people don't agree with actually the decision that's been made, if they believe they've been heard, they're still much more likely to get behind the decision. On the other hand of that, is if they don't feel like they've been heard, then they go off doing the passive aggressive and think, Well, I'm gonna say yes, yes, yes to you, and I'm afraid I'm guilty of this in my old world, and and I'm gonna go out and I'm just gonna carry on doing what I was doing before because you haven't listened to what I've said. But imagine a scenario where you've had this really heated debate, everybody's been listened to, the leader then makes a decision and says, Right, okay, this is where we're gonna go, this is what we're gonna do. Let's agree what time frame we're gonna go after this with, and what are we going to measure? Now, let's come up with a contingency plan in case that doesn't work. Can we all get on the same page and at least move forwards in the same direction? That's how you get alignment. And um Amazon and Intel have this term disagree and commit. It means you might disagree around the table, but you still need to commit. Um yeah, there's an there's an element of towing the party line, but you've got to be brought into that party line through the yes, but if you know that there's a contingency plan and that if you're gonna do this and put your heart into it for six months or three months, or whatever you agree, and you know that there's metrics, and that you can change course, the world is moving so fast now, you need to be able to move and change direction. Um, and so it's it's learn, fail fast and move forwards. That's the that's that's the idea behind it. Something else that's really important on commitment is the difference between commitment and consensus. So, the difference, what is the difference between commitment and consensus? And yes, it's my turn to put you on the spot. How long? What do you think?

Sam 26:07

Well, I would say that consensus means that you all agree, whereas commitment would be getting behind whatever the outcome is, whether you agree or not.

Vic 26:20

Yes.

Sam 26:21

Would that be right?

Vic 26:23

The textbook, you're absolutely not on there. That's that's better. But do you know what? I ask that in every session that I do, and I think you're the first person that's answered it the right way round back, because what we tend to the the way that I answer the question, by the way, is the difference between consensus and commitment, in my experience, is at least six months. Because if you think of my job as a change, if I needed to go around all the different countries and all the different stakeholders, go, we think this is the right direction to go in. Are you on board? Oh, you you you like that bit, but you're not so sure on that bit. Okay, I'll come back to you, and then I move on to someone else, I move on to someone else, and I move on to someone else. If, on the other hand, we go, right, we've all spoken, we're gonna make a decision, can we all move forward and go through that process that I've just described? It can take six months to get consensus. You can't afford six months now in the pace of change. Now, there's gonna be some new whipper snapper company coming up doing something differently and changing the goalposts. So we can't afford to do that anymore. So you can see, I mean, Amazon, whatever you think of Amazon, they move quickly, and that's one of the things that's it's that's embedded in their culture is this disagree and commit. So it's quite significant. So the next one is accountability, and as I mentioned earlier, accountability is the hardest one. So, accountability this is not about you being accountable to your leader, it's about you being accountable to your peers. So you've got absolute clarity on what you're all being responsible for, what you're going to be measured on, what the objectives are, and if you've got that, and if you've got that clarity, then it's easy to hold each other accountable. But if you do that, you've got to be prepared to hold people up, or and I don't mean hold people up, I mean to to question them if you don't think they're doing the right thing. And Shar and I do this, we've learned to do it, and it's uncomfortable. Um, but how do you learn unless people tell you that you're not doing you know, not doing something right, or you've got parsley in your teeth, or you know, you need you need to know these things. You don't want to walk around, and there's a great video called Radical Candor. Um, if you if you um watch the first five minutes of that, it's a lady working at Google and talking about her experience presenting to the CEO of Google and coming out of it, and Cheryl Sandberg, who's her uh VP, giving her some really radical candor feedback. Um, it's it's really powerful stuff. But if you don't if you're not told this, how on earth do you learn? How do we get better?

Sia 29:18

And that's what accountability is all about. You could get better by doing a podcast and listening back to it because that's how you decided that you weren't gonna talk so much. And lo and behold, yes, and I did say the very first podcast we did, I said, Vicki, listen to it. It is the Amplified Group, get Amplified Podcast with the host, Sam Routledge. So um, yeah, yeah, definitely. But I had to tell you that, and it was uncomfortable. But I did tell you because I thought, you know, and I appreciated it. Yeah, but it was for the outcome. I wanted the outcome to be that eventually we would get the podcast that people love to listen to, so um, yeah, it was necessary.

Vic 30:05

And then the last one is results, and this is results of the team, and again, you know, Shah being able to pull me up and hold me accountable and say, you're not you this isn't this isn't working, this isn't right, we need to do this differently. In doing that, we built a better podcast, the results were better, and it's better for the business. So it is about getting these joint results, and you know, we we talk about um having some practical things to take away at the end of our podcast, and the there's a couple that I want to share. Firstly, something that's really, really easy to do, and particularly as as uh so many of us are working virtually at the moment, is record a meeting, just record a meeting, one of your meetings that you do, and listen back to it and listen and see are you the shrinking violet that Chris was talking about, or are you the person that's dominating the conversation? You can there's so much that you can learn from doing that. And the other thing is is to read the five dysfunctions of a team, the book by Patrick Lencioni, and understanding the the results of that and and how the silos form and how you break down the silos and how you're trying to get to the outcome that's the best for the business, not your own personal agenda or not your department's objectives. What is it the business is actually trying to do?

Sam 31:38

So, Charles, what are we going to do about heroes today? We haven't got a guest to uh to to doorstep with a challenge.

Sia 31:44

No, that's that's true. I mean, hero time is my favourite slot, so I don't really know um what's bad. It is, it's my thing. Um, and I I don't often have a thing, I'm not cool enough to have a thing.

Sam 31:58

Not true at all.

Sia 32:00

But I can see Vicki jumping up and down there. So, Vicki, have you got a hero that you want to share with us? Because we've heard about Sam's hero in a previous podcast. So maybe you've got a story that you could tell.

Vic 32:11

We we heard about your hero with um your dog walker coming to take your dog away.

Sia 32:16

Oh, I know that's why it's so quiet here today, because she's taken him again. And it's his first it's his first birthday today. So it's yeah, so he's in his favourite birthday, Harley.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

The dog walker.

Sia 32:27

Yeah, no, no, no, Harley's first birthday, and Angela the Dog Walker, who is amazing, has taken him off my hands and he's in his favourite place on a play date with all of his little friends. Oh, that's good.

Sam 32:44

So you've made your dog after your motorbikes, haven't you?

Sia 32:46

Yes, I had a dream about it, Sam. I actually dreamt that my uh my darling, my darling dog Dylan, who is no longer with us, was playing with a puppy, and that puppy was called Harley, and that's why he's called Harley. I didn't know that, because it was a time it struck a chord first because you have two Harley Davidsons, so yeah, yeah.

Vic 33:10

Yeah. So I have a hero that I would like to talk about. And the hero that I would like to talk about today is uh former CEO, and this um particular uh CEO is my hero because what he did really took balls, and and what I mean by that is I was working with a leadership team, and we went through the five behaviors, and he as we went through the process, he realized it was not the right role for him to be the CEO, and it was his responsibility to move on to it and take a new direction. And he realized that he was holding the company back. He was highly technical, he understood his his technical capabilities, but they weren't the right skills to be CEO, and and he was really brave to do that, and it you know, the company's gone from strength to strength, and I think it's I think it's really great, and it was a really brave thing of him to do to admit that. And the IT leaders survey that we did um two years ago now, what was really apparent on that was the smaller companies that were 15 years old that hadn't been able to scale because they had low trust in the environment, it's because the founders were too controlling. So we can really resonate, and this means a lot to us. And actually, one of the next podcasts in the next series is going to be with another former CEO who is still with the same company, but he realized he was the founder and CEO. He realized that he had some blind spots, and this the company has gone from strength to strength with him still there, but in doing the things that really fit his skills. So I think it's a really it's a really brave thing to do.

Sia 35:28

So that's that's the hero that I wanted to talk about today. Thanks, Vic. And one one point I make is that real life coming to us and hitting us in the face is so funny because the podcast that we're going to do about that CEO, Patrick Lencioni's just brought out a book called The Motive, which is very good. I would recommend you read it, everybody. But in that, he tells exactly that story about that not everybody is a natural leader, or should indeed be a leader, and uh a CEO deciding that actually somebody else should take that job and that they can help that and they can actually support the organization better by doing another function and by standing back and being responsible like that. And it was it's an incredible part of the book. Um, but uh yeah, it just so happens that we're gonna have a real life version of that coming up soon. So uh great point. Thank you, Vic. That was brilliant, loved it.

Sam 36:24

So thank you both. It's been fun doing one with just just the three of us, as the song almost goes. Um and we'll be back. We'll be back with a proper guest next time. So thank you for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. If you liked it, please be sure to subscribe and we'll see you next time.