Everyone should have a Mentor - Leadership and Channel Coach, Yvonne Matzk

We are often asked what is the difference between a coach and a mentor. Yvonne Matzk, Leadership and Channel coach, joins Sam and Vic to share why she has become a coach and why everyone should have a mentor. 

Yvonne shares how the new mentoring network she has  brought to the channel in the UK is really gathering momentum and how you can get involved - maybe with the help of this podcast we can extend the scope outside of the UK?

If you are interested, we also found ourselves in a discussion about a potential podcast mini series - we left it in, but put it after the music at the end in case you are interested to listen - we would love to know what you think?

You can find out about the Channel Community events via their LinkedIn page:  https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-channel-community-uk

The LinkedIn group is: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/9021877

Website: https://www.thechannelcommunity.com/

For a quick overview of our conversation, take a look at our blog: Everyone should have a Mentor - Amplified Group

We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn! 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

Sam 0:09

Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders who want to build unstoppable teams to help their organisations execute faster. As always, we're virtual. I'm at home in Bucks, where it's dridling away. Vicki's over in Deepest Arts, Oxfordshire. I assume the weather is similar. Very similar, Sam. Yeah, roll-on spring. So, Vicky, who have we've got on the episode today?

Vic 0:32

Yeah, thanks, Sam. So on the podcast today, we have Yvonne Matsk. So, like many relationships that have sprung up over the last couple of years, Yvonne and I have not met in person. But I first came across Yvonne when I saw a post from Harvey Smith, who was sharing that he just got involved in a new channel mentoring network. And he gave a shout-out to Yvonne. So I had a look into it and thought, oh wow, it would be great to get to know Yvonne. And also for her to share what she's doing with the channel mentoring network on the podcast. And I also thought it would be really appropriate because there's a lot of questions we get asked about the difference between coaching and mentoring. And I thought that would be a really great topic for the podcast. And so here we are.

Sam 1:22

Sounds like a good plan. So Yvonne, welcome. Perhaps you could start by taking us through your story. Give us a little bit of a career history today, if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Firstly, thanks for having me. So career history, where do I start? So I started back in my hometown of St. Neates in Cambridgeshire as an admin assistant on the former YTS. So I don't know whether you guys remember that. The Young, Thick and Stupids, they used to call us, but it was a modern-day apprenticeship scheme. And I was there for probably five years and I had an incredible time. It was a car sequence manufacturer I was working for. So I already had the luxury of working with in a male-dominated environment from early on. So decided after five years they were relocating. I needed to do something different. And rather than go to Milton King's, I went to Mallorca and became a holiday rep. And I think that was the career that totally changed my life for the good. I think I learned so many valuable life skills doing that job, good and bad. And it was also there where I met my most incredible friendship group that I still have today. And I think it's because of them I've gone on to have the successful career in sales and leadership that I have to have today. So after coming back from York, I moved to London, had various sales positions from car sales, advertising sales, recruitment sales, and then finally landed in tech, which was in 2002, when I started working as an account manager for a company called Genesis Enterprise. And it was at Genesis that I really, really found my true passion for tech and become a huge fan of Cisco. Cisco at the time had just launched their video conferencing solution. It was IP telephony, it was all that was the generation of Wi-Fi, it was some really exciting tech that was far more interesting than servers and storage. So my boss at the time, because he knew I was so passionate about it, sort of encouraged me to explore the possibility of maybe becoming more specialised in the portfolio and then supporting the wider sales organisation to help to drive Cisco portfolio the Cisco portfolio, which I did. So took my CSE, became the Cisco specialist, and helped build out a little Cisco practice at Genesis, which was really successful. And it was because of that I then got tapped up by Kelway in 2009 to go and build out their Cisco practice. They were looking to become a goal partner. So I used all of my knowledge of Cisco, the people I knew there, and um that went from strength to strength as well. It was an incredible journey that we went on. I think when I joined, it was like a$4 million Cisco practice. And when I left in 2020, it was 150 million on its own and we'd swept up at the Global Award. So because of that success, I was then promoted in 2014 to Director of Partners and Marketing, where I had overall responsibility for all of the relationships with the technology vendors and all of marketing for everything outside of the US and Canada. So then in 2020, well actually it was in 2019, I made a decision that I wanted to do something different. Um, I'd been travelling a lot, I've got a young child, and just thought, you know, all this travel is getting to a point now. And I was very fortunate to be in a position to decide to do something different. Um, lo and behold, though, when I left on March 31st, 2020, when the pandemic shook, shook us all. Um, I had to probably rethink what it was that I was going to do because originally I had all these ideas of going and spending six months visiting family and friends and having some time out to really explore what it was I wanted. Um, but I ended up being my daughter's school teacher. So, which was that was my my next new job was home school teacher for the next few months. But actually, it was because of the pandemic that really cemented the fact that I loved being at home with my daughter. I always wanted to explore coaching anyway, so decided to take a coaching accreditation, fell in love with it, and thought, actually, this is awesome. If I can combine my passion and knowledge of the IT industry with all of these coaching skills, then I can give back to way more people doing that than I would by going back to another leadership position. So in 20 October 2020, rather than go back to another large corporate, I sort of took a bit of the bullet and um started my own coaching practice, which um which is coaching. So that's where I am today.

Sam 6:18

Cool. Sounds good. Fantastic journey. Thank you. Maybe we can start by and you've alluded to it, you've hinted at it, but perhaps you could tell us why you do what you do. It's clearly something that you're passionate about.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Yeah, I think you know, one of the things that have always driven and motivated me is giving back and helping other people. I think the most rewarding role when you become a leader is seeing other people shine and grow and develop, and it's not about you anymore, it's about them. And they are your children. It's like having your kids at school, it's just like seeing them winning awards and you know progressing through their own um careers and achieving things. It's it's it's one of the most rewarding things that you can do. And I think when I was off over that six-month period, I did a lot of researching and soul searching, and I'm a massive Simon Cynic fan. I don't know whether you guys are as well, but um, I read the book and was introduced to the book, um, Find Your Why. And I think it was through reading that book that I really discovered my true purpose, which was to inspire and empower others to be courageous so that they realise their full potential and that they are the best versions of themselves. So I thought, if I can combine coaching with my passion, then it's not like working, right? So hence I can help more people doing what I'm doing now than I would going back to another corporate. So that's fundamentally the reason why. Plus, I love being at home, my little girl, and I love that flexibility of being my own boss and working for myself and um and making lots of positive change.

Vic 7:52

So you've just said two things there that have just triggered two things for me. One, that whole feeling proud of helping people. One of the teams that we have been working with for two years now is the customer success team at Okta. And we've got to the point now with them that they said that I felt like I was part of the family, and I'm like, gosh, if I'm part of the family, I need to get out of here. It's time for me to go. So the last time, because every time they bring new hires in, they go through some training with me. And I said, right, the next time we have new housing, you we're gonna do a train the trainer, and then next time you're gonna deliver this, not me. So we did the train the trainer, and in it was one of the managers that I've coached that he's become a manager from an individual contributor. And I was watching him listening to his team members talking, and he looked like a proud dad. And I thought, what does that make me? That's like makes me the proud granny. Oh, it's amazing, isn't it? It was a really, really wonderful experience to be able to see that and the joy that I get from it. And and I was with a leadership team and they were mapping out their career, and we do this career map where your passion points are to where you are now. And they said, you know, when we started after our career, we were really passionate and really excited about what we were doing, but now, you know, we we we don't feel quite that passion as where we as where as when we started. And I thought, gosh, I feel so lucky because actually I've gone right back full circle to having the the passion that I had when I started out.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Yeah, the same. I think I'm as and I tell people when they ask me, I said I'm as passionate about coaching as I was about Cisco. Yeah, that's how I feel, sort of, you know, dear. Cisco will always be my sort of favourite mentor. Don't tell everybody, but you know, it's because it's ingrained in me. You can take the girl out of Cisco, you can't take Cisco out of the girl. But um, yeah, and my father-in-law also said to me once, and this always resonates if you find a job you love, you never work a day in your life. Yeah, and that's literally how I feel about it.

Sam 9:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vic 9:57

Well, you you loved your your job, Sam, didn't you? Completely.

Sam 10:02

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it was, I think, probably a bit like both of you, really. I was never planning for a career in tech. I was planning to be a rock star. Um that was my original goal. Um, kind of failed at that, but hey, what the hell? Uh and I I fell into it, as I've said before on the on the podcast. I really only took the job at SoftCat to get six months or a year's worth of experience before going and getting a real job. Um, and then magically it sort of transformed into a real job. Uh I totally get that. Find a job that you love, or a place that you love being at, or a bit of both, and you'll never work a day in your life, you know. I it did it did, you know, it was work, it was hard work, but it was very well rewarding. You always felt like you were making a difference, and bloody hell, it was good fun.

Vic 10:56

It's that fulfillment piece, isn't it? And making a difference. It feels like we we're we're digressing a bit. Sorry for taking us off track.

Sam 11:03

No, why not? Why not? What the hell? So we should probably start. You know, you talk about coaching, Yvonne. Where where's the line between coaching and mentoring?

SPEAKER_03 11:13

So that's a really good. I get asked this a lot actually. It's I think people get a bit confused as to what the differences are or is it a big Venn diagram where they're all sort of overlap a little bit? They do overlap and they both coexist for the same reason, which is to help and support and nurture other people, but they have it, they're just a different type of approach to it. So I think the easiest way to explain it for me is mentoring is where you give someone advice based on your experience, your knowledge, your past, you know, challenges that you might have faced. People will come to you to give them support and advice. So that's pushing information onto somebody. So in that scenario, you're giving them a fish. Okay. Whereas coaching is very different in the approach because you're teaching them to fish. So what you're doing, you're asking really great questions, you're using a whole load of techniques and skills that you've learned to pull the information from somebody. Because most of the time they already know the answer, they just haven't got to the solution themselves yet. So by asking really good questions and getting them to think really differently, you're pulling the information from them. So now you're teaching them to fish. So mentoring is pushing and giving a fish, coaching is pulling and teaching to fish. And you know what they say? If you give someone a fish, they eat for a day. If you teach them to fish, they eat every day.

Sam 12:47

Do you think that mentoring and coaching have roles at different stages of people's development? I mean, I you know, I kind of do this stuff in informally with people that are mostly soft cat and ex-softcat people. Um and I I never really thought about the delineation between coaching and mentoring, if I'm honest. Um but that made me think about the ways I support, you know, maybe a couple of the youngsters who are at the early stage of their career, which does feel much more like mentoring, whereas those who were maybe in my team does feel a bit more like coaching, you know, those who were who are you know getting on from my kind of age with a bit of experience and what have you. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Yeah, I also think you can be coach-like without being a coach. So you can send the two things. Um, in fact, I literally did a session for some mentors um yesterday on that. So they're building out their own mentoring program at a company called Sapphire, which is amazing. They're doing it all internally, and they wanted to help support the mentors in terms of understanding what a good mentor looks like. Um, and we covered off how to have more coach-like conversations. At the end of the day, as a mentor, they're coming to you because you've got the experience and the knowledge, so that you never forget that, but you can still give the same support, but do it in a way that is more coach-like. So you can ask them the questions, and if they really can't get to the solution, rather than just keep giving them the answer, you can do it in like a third person as an example. So you can still approach it in a more coach-like way without actually being a coach, if that makes sense. I think the other difference that coaching also does, if if you're a qualified coach, like as we are, um it's more to it than just asking good questions. You start to explore things like mindset, how people's brains work, the psychology around it, people's self-awareness, thought processes, which is far more complicated and complex than just learning how to ask good questions, if that makes sense. So that's the bit that I think proper formal coaching will give somebody, it helps them with things like behavioural changes, as opposed to just skill advice, if that makes sense.

Sam 15:05

Skill transfer, yeah.

Vic 15:06

I feel like I need to make a confession. And I think I said to this this to you when we first met, Yvonne. So I'm not a qualified coach, and I would never profess to be a coach. But the way that I describe what I do and what we do at the Amplified Group is we do team coaching. So we're more focused on team dynamics, and then we work with people like yourself who are qualified coaches, to do the I always say it feels like we get it the wrong way around. We do coaching of individuals and we set them all up against each other versus coaching the team and then seeing what additional support people need. I give the analogy of footballers, you don't coach them all separately and then put them on the football field and hope that they they can play together. You coach them as a team and then say, actually, you need some dribbling skills or tackling skills, or and that supplements it. So it feels like it's the wrong way around. So, what's what's your perspective on that?

SPEAKER_03 16:04

No, I'd I'd I just I think you have to be a team, right? So you have to at the end of the day, you're all driving for the same goal, whatever that goal might be. Hopefully, well, if you're not, then you definitely need some team coaching because that you should you absolutely should be. At the end of the day, you're there for the same reasons, okay? Um, you might just approach them differently, you might have a different role in the organization, but fundamentally, you're employed by an organization to achieve a certain goal, whether that's a financial goal or a technology goal, whatever that goal is, a performance goal, it's the same goal, but you just may approach it differently because at the end of the day, we are all different.

Vic 16:46

Yeah, and that's what we that's what that's what we cover. That's exactly what we cover that team dynamics and coming at it from different different perspectives. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

That makes sense being aware of that, you know. You people are different, we all have different personalities, which is fantastic. It's good. The world would be very boring if we were the same, right? But it's being more having more that heightened self-awareness about yourself, but also that you are different to others, and just because you like to think one way doesn't mean that that's the right way, or necessarily how other people can perceive or understand how you communicate more effectively or give them the right information because people just consume information very differently, and they they that that's who they are, they can't help that. That appreciation that we are all different, and if we have a better understanding and appreciation for each other, we're going to be even more powerful and even more.

Vic 17:39

Yeah, so we we we describe that as being able to adapt to to different people.

Sam 17:44

So, Rob, maybe you could tell us a little bit about this uh mentoring network that you've launched.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah, so um when you start your own business, and Vicky, you'll know this, you go from working for a big, large corporate where you have loads of resource and people around you to give you support and advice to being on your own, where you're responsible for making all the decisions, which is great, but sometimes they aren't the right ones. I mean, I think about the number of domain names I've got registered because I thought it was a great idea at the time. And one of the things I noticed was it's quite lonely, not in a way. Oh, I feel really sorry for myself because I'm set on my own, lonely in the way that you want somebody to bounce ideas off and share opinion and give you an honest view. So that was the first sort of reason behind it. And I missed meeting up with you know, our frenemies at all these partner conferences where we'd sit at the bar and have a chat about the specific vendor we were at and sort of share um opinions about whether we felt that their programs were any good or what we thought honestly about those um the solutions that they were bringing out, etc. All obviously non-competitive with the people that we were talking to, but you sort of miss that engagement, and then obviously the more senior you are in organisations, again, it's sort of quite lonely because who do you go to for support and advice? That combined with the fact that coaching is quite costly for some, and unless you work for a big, large corporate or a big vendor, you don't rarely get access to mentors. So, who do you go to if you want that advice and support? And there's also a number of roles in the channel, for example, that are quite solitary, so they may be only one person in an organization that does that role. So, again, where do they go for support and advice around specific challenges that they might be facing because they might be the only person in their organization that does it? So that was sort of the reason behind why we did it. And then so I came up with this idea we need a community or something that can provide a service free of charge to people, up and coming generation. We talk about talent retention that we can give back. You know, we've all done incredibly well, we're all in a position where we can actually now give some time back to these people and help that next generation of talent grow and support them. So I tapped up a few industry friends and um floated the concept through them and said, look, this is my idea. What do you think? They loved it and then they helped me sort of get it off the ground. Um, and yes, we sort of soft launch it in April and we've sort of been doing the pilot really. Um, but it's going from strength to strength. We've now got over 200 members, we've got 30 channel buddies. We call them buddies, by the way, because one of the things one of the things that we realized is the term mentor can be quite elitist. Yeah. And what we didn't want people to think is that it's sort of hierarchical or elitist because that's not what we want. No, it's that cre or causes a level playing field then with buddies, isn't it? That's it.

Vic 20:51

Yeah, yeah, I've done that.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Yeah, and so we just thought we need a new name for it because we wanted it to be softer and wanted people to feel that they could approach us, and it wasn't it doesn't have to be like very structured and formal, or you know, this is just about having people there that were willing to give a back and support you. So yeah, we returned it channel buddy for that reason, and I think it landed pretty well actually. I'm really keen to know some more about it. So we've got you know numerous organizations involved now. Um, we've probably across the spread of the 200 um members that we have, they come, you know, they're from CEOs down to account managers, they're distribution, they're vendors, they're resellers, they're competitors. Um, you know, they complement each other, they support each other, and we've got some amazing um partnerships working already. So you mentioned Harvey. I mean, he's awesome. When I launched this um with CRN back in April, he was one of the first people to put his hand up, say, I want to get involved, I want to help out, I want. support and um he's working fantastically with somebody within um distribution yeah that's the post that i saw that so many uh uh reach out to you and and connect with you uh um because i think uh harvey's buddy had said how helpful it was and it was just lovely i'm like oh what's this this looks amazing yeah and that he's really supported his journey and Harvey will say himself it's a two-way thing he's getting as much out of the relationship with his buddy as his mentee is because people forget that sometimes you can you can learn as much from your mentee as you they learn from you in the two way stretch absolutely I was with two Cisco apprentices yesterday and oh my goodness they were they were just inspiring absolutely inspiring in fact they told me about an exercise to do with the team and I'm like share that with me this is two-way here amazing great stuff so can you tell us about any early successes any any ways that people can get involved so I think early successes have been like people like Harvey getting involved um you know like I said we've got some I mean Hailey Roberts um who is the CEO of Distology she was Distology yeah yeah she's been awesome and she's really helped me get off the ground um and actually we're because of the next evolution so we've it was pretty much let's get it out there see how it works we're all volunteers none of us are getting paid for any of this it's literally just um giving our time um but it's got to that stage now for it to get to that next stage of growth we need to sort of operationalise it a little bit so Ailey um has kindly offered to sponsor it as part of Distology and we've got a few others in the pipeline that are raring to go just so we can get someone in to operationalise it so we can get it to that next phase of growth um which we're really excited about because the concept has been proven the people that are matched together are incredibly you know we've got some really successful partnerships going. In terms of getting involved it's so easy we've got a LinkedIn group that's it's we've tried to make it as simple as possible because we don't any admin involvement means me. So I'm I'm the basically the admin person. So yeah just basically there's a LinkedIn group just ask to join that we'll accept you if you're in the channel and you want to give back um or you just want a place to feel part of something else that you don't have at the minute. Alternatively we do actually have an event we're running on the 21st of April we're going to be in central London which is a community get together where you can come along and meet some of the buddies and the mentees um we're also going to do um probably do a lot of mentoring circle while we're there with a few of the buddies so some of the mentees can get experience from other people um and then you all go through the website and that's it. So once you're in if you do want a channel buddy so if you've decided actually I would love to have somebody support my career then all you do is there's a form that we ask you to complete because we want to make sure that the conversations are strictly between the individuals not about the organisation confidence yeah confidentiality yeah but we also want to make sure there's no poaching of staff yes talent is so tough at the minute what we don't want to be known for is oh you're doing this great job but now the people keep leaving because the mentees you know the mentors poaching them in tea etc so we just have some a bit of a constitution that they have to sign up and agree to then what they is so easy they literally go on the website look who's available on there see who has the skill match we've got somebody that can support them and then they just reach out to them directly that's it it's that easy um and so what's the website called it's about www the channelcommunity.com yeah okay and what we'll do is we'll we'll add anything like the information about your meetup that you're doing we'll we can put all of that into the show notes and we can put it on our website so that we can brilliant afterwards. Brilliant and then if you want to be a channel buddy which would be also amazing um is again just that simple just join the group on LinkedIn just so you're part of our community then let us know that you want to be a channel buddy. Again there's a similar form to complete just send us all your and then with so you can upload all your bios and stuff and that is it. And one thing we are going to do which is something that's been called for and um is the the session I delivered for the internal people at Sapphire we're going to offer that to all of the channel buddies free of charge so that they have so if you've never been a mentor or you've never been a buddy before but you're really interested it's like a very high level training course on what mentoring is how to be a good mentor how to ask good questions and have be more coach like in it so sort of a two hour session that we're going to offer to all of the channel buddies for free so they can have some confidence that they know what they're doing. So will that be delivered as a virtual session then so um the plan is maybe to do it physically on the 21st with the people that can make it and then probably run it every quarter virtually right okay great I think I want to sign up and do you take washed up old retired you've got to sign up to that too. Yeah yeah do do you take washed up old retired channel has beans we take take anyone stop it you're the best people to be involved because you've been there seen it bought it and you've probably got more time than some so we'd love for you to be involved Sam if you want to come and give back to that next generation welcome once I've got my azaleas planted I'll sign up so what would be your your three key takeaways for our listeners if they need to find a mentor we always ask for takeaways so what the first thing I'd say is think about firstly what it is that you want from a mentor because throughout my career I've been asked to be a mentor numerous times and a lot of the time people actually don't know what they want they just think it's really cool to have one. So that's my first key takeaway make sure you know what it is that you want from your mentor then have a look at your own internal network internally with your own organization within your friendship circle or your external network and think about is there anyone within my own network that can provide me with that skill or resource or advice that I need and if you can't join the channel community or another type of organization that can provide you that and then be brave and ask. Don't if you don't ask you don't get and most people will be glad to give you their support and help. As long as you're very clear about what it is that you want and why then most people I don't know anybody really that would say no unless they really haven't got the time and then even if they haven't got the time they can point you in the direction of somebody that has yeah so that would probably be it.

Sam 29:18

Know what you want look at your network and then just be brave and ask makes sense makes sense and you know you mentioned um some of your reading and Simon Sinek and some other bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Would you be so kind as to give our listeners a book recommendation please yes like you say I love reading I've got loads of book recommendations but one I've read recently which I really enjoyed is called Grit um by an author called Angela Duckworth. It also meant talks about she talks about the grit score and how and grit by grit she means resilient. So how what makes people successful isn't academic capability or your results it's basically your ability to keep getting back up again your ability to be resilient but combined with a passion and a purpose as well to if you get those two things together you're pretty dangerous.

Sam 30:13

So they scored a lot of dangerous in a good way dangerous in a good way yeah and they look literally the most successful people have very high grit scores and in the book she actually has the grit scores so you can do it yourself to see how gritty you are as an individual um yes that's a really good book but it's I think it's great what was your grit score I was quite high actually I think um it was 4.8 or something like that out of out of five out of five that is high isn't it yeah yeah but I've been around a long time I've been knocked back quite a lot as well so I think that's just the art of keep getting back up again yeah can I just say you don't look like you've been around a long time am I allowed to say that I I will take it Vicki thank you everyone fascinating stuff and I wish you all this all the success with your coaching business and with the mentor network that sounds like a a really valiant effort to support the channel um it just remains for me to say thank you for listening to get amplified from the amplified group as always your comments and your subscriptions are gratefully received the fact that one advantage of being vertically challenged is that I've always looked fairly young for my age which has it's an advantage now is always I always used to see it as a disadvantage when I was in my career because I always assumed people thought I was too young to know what I was talking about.

Vic 31:44

But again as you know Vicky it's all in your head yes aren't facts so it's just how you perceive it you know they don't look at you and think about you as an individual they rate you on what you say and what you can deliver and not on what you look like which that's I that's that's absolutely it I I've told this story quite a few times I think I think I've told it on the podcast of when I first got made a director at Citrix I was working with the engineering team and the head of HR told me to power dress she said Vicky you need a scarf or you need a brooch but you need something to get shoulder pads and yeah you need something to get their attention and I'm like I really really hope that what I say and what comes out of my mouth is what's going to get their attention and and and it it did.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Thanks I had a very similar experience I went on this brand awareness course that Kirway had put on and they basically told me I had to wear like twin set and pearls because that was what they said off the back of this.

Vic 32:45

So because of that I always had this view that I had to look like a mini Margaret Thatcher seriously yeah yeah um gosh we could have a whole different conversation about that couldn't we should that's um maybe we should Vicky that's another podcast right there I I actually think that would be a really interesting and useful podcast topic um simply because I I think that's probably less of a problem for guys than it is for girls and you know from my point of view it would be really interesting to explore that and have people take some learning from that because I think I think so um you know I think I've referred well I'm gonna cut this bit out because we're we're going off and I want to make sure we stick to time but um Microsoft did something in about it was about 2002 and they realized that they were promoting women that had taken on the blue shirt and chinos uniform to and and they were promoting women that were behaving like men basically interesting which doesn't really help if you think about building a team with diversity of thought not not at all and actually what's really interesting is Jacqueline DeRocca who I don't know if you know yeah something that says I used to behave like a man and I'm like oh my god thank god somebody has actually said it thank you I think I saw that and it resonated myself and I that was me because all of your role models and your environment was strong competitive men so you morph into this person because you're a product of your environment and you can't help it but um Sam there's a really good so I've done loads of research on this obviously through my coaching and because of my passion for supporting women it's um they call it speaking while female so if you're in a group women generally speak 2000 words a day men on average speak 8000 but yet when the woman's in a room with uh all men and then the minority they speak 80% less right something else that women do which is called minimizing so a guy goes so you go into a room full of men and they sit there and they like this right and they take up they put their legs on the desk and they over you know they're like they take up room a woman walks like man manspreading man spreading right a woman walks into the room she goes she goes like this because she's trying to make herself small they call that minimalizing it's because of the space around them so might not be power dressing but there's something I can't Amy cudd she's talking Amy I don't I think I've got the surname power purse power pose so that's that's a really really interesting one so I started exploring doing some work this is definitely another conversation but I started exploring doing some work with the Oxford drama school about helping women come into a room with presence but still act gently like a woman having gentle presence and I thought that that's so there's there's definitely something there.

Sam 35:50

I think I think all of that stuff would you know you could have a mini series and I think that would be fascinating to explore yeah yeah yeah and you and you know what it it would help guys as well as obviously we you know we're talking about helping women but it would also help guys to be more accommodating be more mindful perhaps when interacting with women if they know that that that women go through these things.

Vic 36:22

It cuts both ways doesn't it it does but there needs to be a sensitivity of it because what I absolutely hate is women getting a position because they're just a number and they are versus actually they're the right person to have that job and that's that's that's got to be there.