Get Amplified
Podcast series GET AMPLIFIED where we’re going to be talking about everything to do with working in the tech industry from staying ahead of the pace of change to fulfilment and well-being.Hosting the series will be Sam Routledge former CTO at Softcat who will be joined by Vicky Reddington from the Amplified Group. The team will be joined by leaders in the tech industry who will share their stories. We are going to share things we wish we knew 20 years ago. This is not rocket science but, we are going to highlight many of the things we do subconsciously and with a more conscious approach, done with intent and purpose can be hugely impactful. We will break it down and make it practical! Like everything we do at the Amplified Group, we will keep it real, it will be relevant and it will be lively!
Get Amplified
Why we should build a more diverse network - Lee Higgins Founder Diverse Talent Networks
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Diversity - hot topic or over used word? Whatever your view on this, so many of us are guilty of hiring who we know. It’s hard to disagree with Lee when he says we all need to build more diverse networks.
Lee Higgins, Founder of Diverse Talent Networks, shares with us why we should think ‘culture add’ instead of ‘culture fit’ and why thinking value aligned will allow for more diversity of thought - a topic we are very passionate about at the Amplified Group.
Here’s the key takeaways and book recommendation:
Key takeaways
· Widen your circle and diversify your network
· Be proactive so when it is hiring time you are starting with a more diverse pool of talent
· Think about culture add – even if hiring through traditional means. Who’s adding to that culture?
· Recognise that you have more influence than you think
We like Lee’s comment, “Make change happen for good” with actions instead of window dressing.
Find out more about Diverse Talent Networks
https://www.diversetalentnetworks.com/
Follow them on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/company/diverse-talent-networks/
Book Recommendation:
Alex Budak - Becoming a Changemaker
We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn!
https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/
Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, bringing you stories to help leaders in the tech industry execute their speed through the power of working together. Good to be back, Vicky, after a little bit of a break. I'm at home in sunny Buckinghamshire, hoping to get outside with the dogs later. Vicki, how's the weather where you are?
VicWell, I am in sunny Oxfordshire.
SamYeah, I think it was the yeah, I had to put my hood up when I was taking the dogs out around the fields earlier. Um but there we go. So who have we got on today's podcast then?
VicOkay, so today we've got Lee Higgins, who is the founder of Diverse Talent Networks. And we're introduced to Lee through David O'Hara, who's one of our amplifiers. And the giveaway is in the the title of Lee's company, which is diverse. So diversity is such uh, I'm gonna steal a phrase from from Lee's website, I'm afraid. It's overused, I think, in the tech industry. You know, it's such a topic that everyone thinks, oh, I need to jump on the bandwagon of. And yet it feels overused without there being a lot of action behind it. And I have to admit, I'm a little bit worried about the topic because I'm worried about saying the wrong thing, and that scares me. And I'm hoping we can dig into that a little bit. At the Amplified Group, we are very passionate about diversity of thought and making sure that there is a way for everybody to have a voice and everybody to feel like they've been heard, and for me, that's that's what inclusion is about, no matter who you are or where you've come from. And we have a methodology for that, but I think one of the biggest challenges we have is actually how we extend our network in the first place, which is a wonderful segue into uh to what Lee does.
SamFantastic. So, Leigh, maybe you could um uh introduce yourself and and give us a little bit of background on how you got to where you are today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank thanks, Sam, and thanks, Vicky, for having me. I'll go a little bit sort of pre-career, and I'll do that really quickly just because I think it's quite relevant. So I I come, whilst I'm I'm very privileged in many ways and and um probably don't sound like I used to, but I come from a very traditional working class family. So we grew up, seven of us in a two-bedroom high-rise flat in Kilburn Square, North London. And um, I have four sisters, four older sisters, so I was the youngest. Uh, we then up, we got managed to upgrade to a council house in in Cricklewood. Uh, and again, and this was the first going back now and talking to my family about networking. This was the first bit of networking. My dad happened to know someone on the council, so he was able to sort of push and push and push to get us in a house and out of a two-bedroom flat, which was, I'd imagine, pretty unbearable for my parents. Anyway, we we moved into a you know a council house. I had a wonderful upbringing in a very multicultural society, you know, Greater London. At the time, you know, when I went to school, um everybody was different, right? You had uh first and second generation uh immigration in London. So for me, seeing you know people of different race and ethnicities was just commonplace, and welcoming those people into my home just like they were my best mates. So that was you know, from all around the world, whether it was Cameroon, uh Cyprus, Egypt, uh, Nigeria, uh Poland, you know, Hungary, these were all my best and closest friends up until the age of uh 10, um, or nearly 11. And then my parents moved out to Essex, which was then the complete opposite. Like we moved to quite a deprived area of Essex and um a place called Canberry Island, if anyone knows it. I think it is officially listed as deprived, but but it was amazing. It was an amazing upbringing, loved it, the open space compared to being in London, but it was completely white, uh, in terms of you know, if you look at the demographic of the people, very different to that multicultural society we've been we've been used to. Um that was my first sort of oh, this is this is very different. Why is that? But then going through education, I was very fortunate to be the first to go to university, again, last at home, uh, maybe a little bit more money available, but also grants was still made university very accessible to people like me. And from university, that's when I realized that life is not a meritocracy, because despite you know, getting a degree and feeling like I was mixing with you know more affluent people, people who've been to private school, I was able to apply for the same types of jobs. And when we first started applying for jobs, it was internships for the summer. And I realized that okay, I was being rejected, but so my friends, that's okay. So it's still going to be hard, even though I'm at a half-decent university. Um, and I went to Loughborough, Loughborough University. But then despite being rejected, when I asked some of my friends what they were doing for the summer, they were still off to do those internships that they'd been rejected from. And I was like, okay, so how how are you working at PWC or how are you going to KPMG for your internship when you've been rejected like me? And the response was, well, as you might, you know, my dad knows some one of the senior partners, he had a word, and so I I've got six weeks' internship. All right, okay, so yeah, big light bulb moment for me. Doesn't matter if you start getting the same academic qualifications, you've been to a similar institution as some of your friends, it is about who you know, right? So that was my first opening. Then I fell into recruitment. Um, and my role in recruitment was, I think, because I liked people, I liked you know, trying to help people. But what um was I a salesperson? I think I'm a natural salesperson, but I didn't really see recruitment as sales. I I thought you're there to really try and help people and find them the best opportunity that that meets their needs. And I developed a career in recruitment for 23 years, going from placing very quite junior people in financial services predominantly on salaries of anything from sort of 20 to 40,000 at the start, to then moving into much more senior recruitment. So focusing on very much directed to board level appointments, doing what is retained executive search, so getting into that corner office. And what I recognize throughout my career in recruitment is that there is a lot of bias. And I'll pause there because that hopefully gives you a bit of a flavor for who I am, where I've come from. Yeah, that makes sense to that point, and then we can cover the rest. So, where when did you set your company up? So, diverse talent networks, we we started officially about a year ago. So we've been going just over 12 months, and that is when we took on board our first clients. The idea, and I've been trying to get it going probably for around six or seven years, to always felt there was a need to support organizations with their networks around different aspects of diversity, you know, getting to know individuals from historically underrepresented groups, but also to actually look um at different skill sets, at the skills they didn't have within their business. Um, add a phrase which I didn't know at the time, but it's probably called culture ad now, which is like, can you bring people in that will answer the questions that the rest of the team cannot answer rather than bringing in people that are a culture fit and basically just agree with everything the team's already saying?
SamYeah, I guess there's a balance between culture, culture fit and making sure you've you you don't end up with groupthink, isn't there? You know, because even if you are trying to be as diverse as possible, everybody's still got to get along.
SPEAKER_00How do you manage that? That's great, that's a great question. I think it is that we talk about it even in our own business, you know, we're we've got a similar mindset. But I think and actually within our DTN community, we've probably got a very similar mindset. But that comes down to people probably being quite kind, empathetic, and inclusive. So I think it's more like being value aligned.
SamYeah, okay, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, rather than culture fit, yeah. Rather than culture fit, which in my experience as a recruiter has been more about went to the same school universe, similar university, of a certain standard, maybe has played sport because that makes you competitive. And yeah, you just you know walks and talks and sounds you know very similar to you.
SamYeah. Yeah. I'm gonna use maybe an example that might work here. I'm a massive cricket fan, right? England won the World Cup in 2019, and it's it's quite widely quoted in cricket circles, but as in many um many sports, it's traditional to spray over champagne when you win. Um, of course, England have got a couple of uh of Muslim players, so Moen Ali and Adil Rashid. Um, and it was they were about to do the photos um with the champagne and everything, and Owen Morgan, the captain, made them made the uh the assistants take the champagne away to ensure that um Adil and Mo could join join in the photos and were comfortable and happy. And um, I just thought that was really perceptive of him because it you know, in that moment you don't necessarily think about these things, do you? It's uh yeah, and clearly in sport, as there is occasionally a bit of a drink drinking culture, but Mo and Rash definitely have their culture aligned with the England teams, or their their values aligned with the England teams, shall we say? That might maybe that's a reasonable example of what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00I think it is, and I think also like when you when you relate that to the world, the corporate world, um, where people feel under pressure to go out and have a drink, you know, that's where a lot of networking takes place. You hear about the next big opportunity or the next big project. I think that excludes a lot of people, but we we we can come back to that. But I but I certainly noticed throughout you know recruiting what I'd often, particularly when I was doing more senior searches towards the end of my career, quite often I'd meet a hiring leader who would start the conversation with, Lee, I'm pretty sure I know who I want to hire. I just want to make sure I'm not missing a superstar out there. And you go and find them superstars who perhaps they don't know, and then there's a sort of a default anyway to the person they didn't know. And we are and you know, through getting this company going and really digging deeper into why that happened, you know, I understand that much better now. A lot of it was coming down to the pressure that leaders are under to get the hire done in a time frame so they don't lose headcount, to bring somebody they feel won't let them down, someone they can trust.
SamMaybe the yeah safe hire as it's perhaps perceived. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, agreed. Interesting, interesting. So, do you want to give it give us your elevator pitch for the diverse talent network? What's the what's what's the the prec of what you guys do as a business?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that'd be useful for our listeners. I I think it's good because we probably start with a question to leaders, which is you know, could you benefit from a more diverse network? And I think it's quite hard for people to say no to that. Is there anybody anybody who could yeah, and and then and it comes down to what does diversity mean? But it's like, well, that's what we do. You know, we help you diversify your network. And I think for many people, networking is quite difficult, and myself included. I think even though I spent a career having to build a network and speak to people, that never came very naturally to me. Um, and I think everyone, if they're being brutally honest, has to work at it. Don't get me wrong, that's very flamboyant people who are incredibly sociable, that would have no problem walking up to someone and asking them a question. But for me, you know, there's always a bit of a deep breath, and then get yourself set and like, you know, ask a few questions, start talking to somebody. And I've got better at it over the years doing the job I've I've done for 20 odd years. But but I think it's building those networks, making it a bit easier for people who are busy, who might find a little bit of awkwardness around networking. How do I get started? Understanding the importance of it, because when we looked at um my colleague Dan Whitehead, who spent a lot of time running large talent acquisition teams, we looked at where hiring was actually uh resulting from, and a lot of it was coming from direct referrals. So the people being referred in by individuals that already worked in a business, and a lot of those direct referrals clearly coming from networks that lack diversity. And I think if you looked at the LinkedIn stat, it says something like 48%. So nearly half of all hiring happens through direct referrals. And recruitment, I think, was only about 15 to 18 percent, and the rest being sort of internal mobility. So for us, it was like, well, clearly that needs to change. If you make those networks more diverse, yeah, that will hopefully lead to a much wider talent pool and create more opportunity for people from every aspect of diversity. Yeah, widen that network and diversify that network for leaders.
SamSo you're not a recruitment consultancy per se, you're uh more of a connector of people.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and and and it's really trying to get those leaders into the mindset of an executive search professional who lives on that network and builds a living off the back of it. And quite often, I'll bring that to life for leaders and say by us building you this network, you're widening that pool of talent, but you're connecting with people that also know others from different backgrounds, and that's really important. And when I headhunted somebody for a job previously, quite often I might come to you, Sam and say, Sam, got a great job. Here it is, it's working for this company, go leave. That sounds great. It's not for me for whatever reasons, it's not the right time. Yeah, there's no reason to leave your current organization. You talk about me, me, Dave, or something. Exactly. You'd say you should speak to Vicky. Yeah. And I think that's where the hire usually comes from. But then four years down the line, you might hire, you know, Sam. I might come to you and I have got the perfect thing and it's the right time. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense, I think.
SamUm, how how would you stop diversity in companies just being a sort of a a tick box? Diversity washing like we do, green washing or cloud washing or whatever. Yeah. Surely that's that's rife, is it? I I you know some some pretty words on a website and no substance behind it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we we talk a lot about statements of good intentions in our business, because I think that's what organizations are very good at, saying the right things, perhaps doing what we call diversity or window dressing, where you're putting you know diverse talent on a website, you know, and and that clearly there's a great need to push for greater race and ethnicity representation within an organization, gender. Is that there's a big question about is that a diverse hire when females are 50 or 51% of the population, depending on what stat you look at? And so for us, it's like it's right, we were speaking to the talent from different backgrounds, we were speaking to leaders, and there was this huge amount of pressure again to be shown to be doing something, and that then started resulting in hiring being done with a view that you know we've got to bring in more diverse talent, and then talent when we spoke to particularly women and people from different ethnic minority backgrounds, they were questioning whether they're being approached for jobs for the right reasons, but is it?
VicSo I hadn't long left VMware where I had a call from a recruiter. Yeah, they were looking for a CEO. I mean, I I wasn't qualified to do that to be sure, but they were looking for this for CEO and that they wanted a woman. I said, So the reason you've called me is because I'm female. I said, Well, we'll just stop right here.
SamIs is that kind of is that what you call positive discrimination or is that just a mess?
SPEAKER_00Lee? I think it happens for a number of reasons. So um if I think of a specific example, and I speak to recruiters a lot about the pressure they're under. Quite often what happens is that if you've got an in-house talent acquisition team, they might look at the um the broader market and think they've got a good spread of candidates for a role. Then if they're gonna go and pay a recruiter, they'll they'll push them down the route of we need, you know, people of colour, we need women on that short list. That's what we want you to focus on, that's what we're paying, gonna pay you for. That's definitely happening. Yeah. And is that right or wrong? Probably that's not my position to comment on, but that's the reason I set up my business because I felt, well, actually, what's missing is the networking piece. It's at the point of recruitment, there is too much pressure, there's not enough time. But if you start networking ahead of time, taking meaningful action, that's what we call it, meaningful action on diversity, action, inclusion, really getting to know people from all different aspects of diversity, hearing their stories firsthand, that gives you a much wider talent pool, a pipeline of diverse talent. But then if you reach out to those people in the future about an opportunity, they know it's for the right reasons, and you're doing it for the right reasons because something in their skill set makes you think, oh, Vicky, she could come in and do this job.
VicYeah, it's playing the long game, isn't it? I think. And from what you've just said, I think part of the reason I have felt like I said um at the beginning of the podcast, not comfortable with it, it's always felt like people have been shoehorned into a role because they tick some of the boxes, but there hasn't actually been enough talent in the pool to start with to enable you to hire the right person for the job. And therefore, you're in the downward spiral of this is just a tech tick box exercise, they are not worthy of the job in the first place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And then what you don't want to do is set people up for failure, and there will be people in the organization that can't wait to jump on the fact that you've hired a black man or woman for a job, or person of colour, depending on again how people would prefer to describe themselves, or a woman for the job, and there'll be people there waiting for them to fail, wanting them to fail, to say we told you so. And so I think it's it is a slower process where if you're really gonna do something meaningful around DEI and bring people along for that journey and not make people feel threatened, and let's face it, for a lot of people, you know, for a lot of um you know, people in organizations now, that is the white male who's feeling a little bit threatened. Some people will say, oh, poor white male with lots of privilege. Yes, that's fine, that's also okay. But what it but but they will feel threatened, and but those people are still the individuals you need to bring along for the journey. They need to be committed to for taking action on diversity, active, and inclusion for the right reasons, from getting to know people to getting to understand their skill set to embracing that culture ad. If that doesn't happen, then we don't see progress, and that that might be part of the reason why we haven't seen progress, despite anywhere between six and eight billion being spent at a year on diversity, acting, and inclusion initiatives.
VicYeah. So I can again relate to this from a from a tech perspective, in that there'sn't there's not enough females in the tech industry, but that's because they're not being interested enough in school to start with. So where where I start with this is going into schools and talking about why it's important, why the humanities are important in the tech industry, and that you don't have to be a techie to do that. But starting starting young and playing that long game.
SPEAKER_00So with with what you're doing in helping people extend their networks for when it's the right time, is that the is that that that that's that's it, and it's coming back to what Sam asked me about, you know, we're not recruiters, so and and I've seen recruitment fees get in the way of the right people being hired. Because you if if if it's quite subjected, or there's um a piece of paper between two candidates and one's not going to cost you a fee and they've come through a direct referral, and the other one is, you might then default to that person where you're gonna save yourself anything 25, yeah.
SamSenior senior hires, it could be a huge amount of money that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there are still uncapped fees out there, so you might be paying, you know, 300,000 pounds plus for one senior hire. And so for when it comes down to that, and it's really marginal. I think I have seen people go the other way. That's not great. So I think it's really important. We can do hiring, but I think it's important that we stay clear of that and make it very clear this is about building that diverse network. For the future, and you'll you'll probably start to see hires from it, but we won't, you know, we don't charge additional fees if people hire from our networks. So it's about encouraging them to network, build that network, tap into the individuals they're meeting into their networks, but not do that sort of direct fixed fee hiring piece.
SamSo how do you monetize your business then? So we so we charge you know if you want this if you want this taken out of the podcaster, yeah. This is more for my interest. Yeah, no, no.
SPEAKER_00I we charge each um for each network that we build, 12 people, we we charge you know a fee for that. So seven and a half thousand to build the network. Yeah. Now um within each network, you can you could have multiple leaders who can access that network. We're trying to keep that to a minimum of three, because again, what missing what's missing from recruitment is talent having direct access to leaders they might be working for in the future.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Hearing about the business unit, hearing about potential jobs, hearing about culture directly from those leaders is so important. You can find yourself sometimes in an interview process, depending on the level, where you might not meet the person you're working for until sort of four or five interviews in. And I've always felt the interview process is outdated, broken, anyway. And for me, it should be more about networking and probably coming in and doing team-based projects or activities to show how you can interact in the place of work versus how well can you rehearse for an interview and how well can you self-cause interviews in themselves are I think favor a certain type of person.
SamYeah, yeah, in the same way that the you know, the the the education system favors those who are good at exams, not necessarily those who are good at coursework, I suppose, you know, that we've introduced more and more coursework, but it's still exam bias. You're absolutely right, it probably is those who can pull it together and perform for a you know a 40-minute conversation. Absolutely. Yeah.
VicSo Lee, you were just talking then about a fee. Is that for is that a corporate fee?
SPEAKER_00It's a corporate fee, yeah. We don't we don't charge um the individuals, so we don't charge the talent um to be part of the DTN community. Um and what you know, the other thing that networking enables us to do is we don't share CVs unless the talent really wants us to put a CV in front of one of the leaders, but we ask them to complete a questionnaire, short questionnaire. Part of that questionnaire asks those individuals to self-identify, so talk about what you know they feel makes them different. Um, and that can be again just looking at every aspect of diversity. There's a real focus on race and ethnicity and gender. We look you know way beyond that, and think disability, neurodiversity doesn't probably get the focus that it should, and there's reasons for that as well. So this isn't criticized. I never want to criticize anyone because it's such a difficult area, and this is part of the problem why there's been no progress. But um, yeah, we get them to fill in that profile, and they can also share what in what they think makes a great company culture and what diversity, equity, and inclusion means to them. So that's really good qualitative data for the leaders and for the organizations that we're working with to hear it first hand. Well, this is the type of organization I'd love to work in.
SamThat makes sense. That makes sense. This is you mentioned neurodiversity. I've said it before on on previous episodes of this podcast, but it feels feels to me like neurodiversity is the next big diversity that we haven't really uh you know looked at yet. Is that something that you see, or are we are we just not there yet?
SPEAKER_00Uh I I think it and I must, I should have said this right at the start. I am not a DEI consultant. And sure, um but but the reason I say that as well is because I I think part of the problem is people don't feel relaxed about having these conversations. They're so concerned with the phrasing and the terminology. And I remember speaking after George Floyd, I remember speaking to a very good friend of mine who works in the asset management industry, a black man um who I've known for years, but I've never asked him what it's like to be a black man navigating his career in the city. And I said, the reason I haven't asked you that, Dale, is because I've always been so concerned about saying the wrong thing. And he said, Well, let me let me tell you now, the most important thing is we're having this conversation. Don't worry about the phrasing and the terminology. Yeah, and so then I immediately felt relaxed and felt like it could have a really good open conversation and understand the challenges he's faced.
SamI think that's you're coming at it from the right point of view, though, aren't you? You know, even if you get the wording wrong in that sort of scenario, you're trying to understand and you're trying to help. Absolutely. It's the purity of intention that counts, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00I I think so, but but Dale said a really um interesting thing that again made me feel more relaxed. He said, Lee, when we set up, he used to work for JP Morgan, we set up the black leadership forum, and he said we couldn't decide what to call it. There were there were 20 black people or people of colour, because different people like you know would refer to themselves in different ways, but we couldn't, it took us two weeks to decide what we were actually going to call it. And he said, So if you know, if I'm struggling and I'm having those conversations as a black man, then you know it's gonna be really difficult for you as a white male. Uh, and that made me feel more relaxed again. But then we but as we talked about different aspects of diversity, diversity of thought, neurodiversity, disability, visible and invisible. You know, we we it became very clear to me that what's happening with a lot of the DEI initiatives is that it's more about exclusion almost, people being put into segregated groups.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And again, but we want to be all about inclusion and belonging. We spoke to a very uh a very large, well-known tech business right at the start. It's probably unfair of me to name them, although I really want to. But they but they sort of went through our website and started picking out words and the fact that we hadn't mentioned underrepresented groups more than three times on the website. I really going through it with a fine-tooth code, and I and I and I really felt as that as we were getting that feedback, like you you're missing the point here. You're missing the point. This is about you know people connecting with other human beings, it's about human connection, which everyone finds valuable, and about leaders being able to diversify their network. We also, Dan and I, you know, we spent 23 years in search. I've recruited for some of the toughest organizations, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs. Dan's ran talent acquisition of BlackRock in Europe, and and we were being asked, like, well, how can you find the talent? And it's like, well, the talent does exist because it's an excuse that perverse talent doesn't exist, it does exist.
VicYeah, that sounds sorry. I was just gonna say that sounds like it sounds like that sounds like buzzword bingo, and back to that tick box exercise rather than Sam, you said what did you say? The purity of purity of intention, yeah.
SamI guess, you know, trying to do the right thing. And yeah, so I sit I see this. So yeah, I as you know, Vicky, I've got a a teenage daughter, um, and her friends are quite a few of them have decided they want to be uh referred to by different pronouns, you know, they've they feel they're not quite in the the gender that they're assigned at birth and what have you. And I try my damnedest to get those pronouns right. And yeah, it's hard because I don't know, I don't know these people all that well, and that you know they they they come and go, and I I try to get it right. And Iris says her friends think I'm cool because by and large I get their pronouns right. I mean that's I think that's probably a fairly low bar, but the fact that the fact that they know that I'm trying makes a difference, I think, and that I'm doing it for the for the right reasons so that they feel welcome and valued. Does that make any sense?
SPEAKER_00It it really does. I think I think there is um we live in a really fast changing world, and it's quite interesting because if if you speak to a certain generation and they're struggling with technology, everyone finds it funny. But if they're struggling with their conditioning, which might be being raised as you know, someone who's quite racist, sexist, misogynistic, whatever, um, that's not funny. And I and I think of course it's not funny, but it it's a very steep learning curve for for some generations. Yeah. And what we're what I'm seeing, you know, speaking to my, you know, I've got a teenage son now, and I'm slightly younger, but but they've got a very different outlook on life and a very different view of you know, people should be able to be who they want to be. Yeah, and um I think that's really interesting. So there is there is, I think there's great hope for the future, but I think there's still a lot that can be done now in the short and medium term.
SamYeah, I've got a tough uh a tough question. So, you know, we we live in a capitalist society, right? The you know, the way to um make this stuff better is to provide evidence to provide proof that it improves a company's bottom line, that it makes your business better. Clearly, absolutely 100%, we should be uh investing in diversity because it's the right thing to do. But can we show businesses that it has a positive impact on the bottom line as well?
SPEAKER_00I think that's a really that's a really interesting question, and I and I I would say some of the more short-sighted businesses that we've sort of spoken to would always want to hide behind the data. And I think sometimes the most important things cannot be measured. I think data has its incredibly important, and I think there is some amazing data that we're going to capture as we scale as an organization. But right now, I think you're I think most organizations are still at that starting point of just getting to know different types of people with relevant skill sets for their organization. People that perhaps in an interview process, and I've seen this and I've been guilty of this, where you walk out of that interview room and you go, Oh, I couldn't possibly work with that person, they talk too much. Or maybe, yeah. You know, what's wrong with that? Really, it's like, well, that's just but what's going to come out of those conversations? What's going to come out of them talking a lot? And again, it's just trying to shift away from that and working with people that will challenge you, as opposed to it just being really easy and then saying yes or listening to you and being easy to manage.
VicYeah.
SPEAKER_00Interesting.
VicI am curious to know because you said the business has been set up a year. What does it look like now? I think you've got you've you've got some pretty decent corporate clients, haven't you?
SPEAKER_00We've got some really good corporate clients. We've got some organizations that have um taken this on as a pilot and recognized immediately that this is what they're not doing. So those conversations at the start, we weren't sure what we were going to be doing, brutally honest. But I knew if you connected people who wouldn't ordinarily have a chance to connect, some good things could happen there. And it was about, yes, you might get to know that talent from historically underrepresented groups, that broader, diverse talent that you wouldn't ordinarily get to know, and you may hire them in the future. But also there's that education, you know, one-to-one, where you're meeting somebody that's had to overcome a lot of challenges to get where they are, or perhaps isn't where they should be because of the colour of their skin or because of their gender. And I think that's been still quite an eye-opener for some of the leaders that have been engaged in some of these networking conversations. But now we're in a flow where we are able to bring in people much more quickly who could be hired if they're looking. And we are finding that the talent, you know, culture does matter, you know, inclusion matters, feeling like they can be in an organization where they truly belong matters. And a company that's you know taking on this type of initiative, not just DTM, but it could be any initiative that that shows real that has some accountability behind it, that shows you're investing your time, not just throwing money at you know what they deem to be a challenge or a problem, that that has a huge impact on the individuals that we're then connecting with those leaders. So for me, we we don't need to sell this either, because once we explain this is about diversifying your network, this is the one bit of action you can take, meaningful action. Leaders are turning around, and all of our clients that are on our website, they've all said yes within five minutes. Now it's taken longer to bring them on board, obviously, but that first leader we've met said, this is what we're not doing, that's what we need to be doing. So it's come a long way, and we've got a really good team of people. Uh, yes, the the two co-founders initially, myself and Dan Whitehead, white middle-aged men, that was challenged. Pale, pale, and snail. That yeah, that was challenged, and um and and that made me open, I didn't really want to open up about my background because I'm you know, I guess I'm quite a private person, and I don't want to, and I still realize I've got lots of privilege, but um it enabled me to share that story and and and talk about my my roots, if you like, or want better words, and but actually it's important that white middle-aged men, privileged people are taking action and are the allies and are able to create initiatives like this, and and many others out there that because this is about collaboration as well, we're not the answer on our own. We're we're one tool or one initiative that organizations can can use, and that's also been a really interesting journey for us, Vicky, because coming back to where are we now? Well, we're working with organizations that are already doing a lot when it comes to diversity, actually, and inclusion, but they just recognized they weren't doing this. So we have reached out to some companies who have said, thanks, but we've got DEI covered, thanks, but we're already doing so much. Fine if that's the way you think, but again, you know, the Expedia Group, the HSBCs, the Northern Trust, Morgan Stanley's, you know, they're all recognising that they can do more.
VicSo I'm gonna challenge you again on when Sam said you're elevator pitch, when you say this, just give it as in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_00So as in this business, what is it? What is this business? I I think we've got it on our website in the fact that you know diversity is everyone, so you know, DEI is everyone's responsibility. So we think if people really want to take action, they can do that by creating some time to have conversations, by widening that network and growing from it. And I've done the same thing, you know, throughout my life. I've had to try and network to make things happen. So for me, it's about you know, if you diversify your network, you will learn far more than spending an hour, you know, sitting in a room and having a bit of unconscious bias training, which you might then forget about when you leave that.
SamAnd so bet better to do something proactive to create a network rather than reactive, as in you know, learn you know, learning it with so you're sort suggesting almost that the unconscious bias training can be a little bit of diversity washing, as opposed to getting on the front foot with this stuff and yeah, it can be because it's very hard, and I think what it leads to is even more confusion.
SPEAKER_00The more I read about diversity, and the more I felt I really can't talk about diversity because I feel like I'm just absolutely gonna say the wrong thing and I'm gonna upset someone, but you're gonna do that anyway, and you see that all over social media and LinkedIn in particular, where people have said the wrong thing and everyone wants to call them out for it. Whether that's to get comments, you know, to be seen to be making comments to gain more followers, I don't know, but it's it's the big challenge, and it's the big challenge for leaders, particularly when they're in an interview process in a corporate environment, because they're living in fear of their jobs if they say the wrong thing or act in the wrong way. So it does stifle meaningful action. And so this is a way for leaders to take meaningful action uh and and hopefully have a you know, create a safe space to have a conversation with someone that's different to them, comes from a different background, wouldn't ordinarily get that opportunity to connect. That's pretty powerful, and that in my opinion is absolutely what people should be doing. Uh, you know, you can meet lots of different people from different backgrounds, and again, if you're genuinely curious, you learn a lot about culture, about the way people want to communicate, and they do communicate. And I think it's it's it's quite interesting. And I I'm really guilty of this. I do, I am very quick to judge people sometimes. But if you really make an effort to open that person up, then you'll you'll see a very different side to them. Even like if you're walking down the street, and I actually said this this morning, sometimes you feel like everyone's grumpy, everyone's got their head down, but they've got their own troubles and they're thinking about life. But if you smile and if you say, hi, how are you doing okay? Like quite often you'll get a smile at least back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's what we're trying to do here. We're trying to get people just to have that very first conversation and then you know, track where that goes. Because I think one of the things about you know, diversity in the workplace and inclusion and that sense of belonging, it's like, well, it's all right, you know, attracting diverse talent. Are they going to stay within your organization? Are they gonna progress? Now that happens if they feel like they belong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So again, we feel through the power of networking, you create a more equitable relationship at the start because you haven't got someone interviewing somebody else and selling, you know, you haven't got two parties selling to each other. So you have an equitable conversation, a much stronger foundation for that relationship. And then if you're bringing individuals in the future into the organization, a much better chance of them feeling included and feeling like they belong.
VicI think it goes back to what we said almost right at the beginning of this, um, about having shared values and caring about people. I think that's why we really wanted to get you on the podcast because it was very clear from our very first conversation, we were coming from the same place about caring about people.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's absolutely true. And I and I feel like time puts a lot of pressure on people to not do the right thing. Even if you're just walking down the street and you don't smile at someone, it's because you're in a rush to get somewhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and that's what been one of the biggest challenges with diverse talent networks, is getting leaders to allocate the time, even when they really want to, like they really mean it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And one thing we would, you know, I'd always say is, you know, because we've been challenged by some clients about other clients, do they mean it? The leaders that are signed up to DTN, wherever they're working, they mean it because they fill out an onboarding question. They talk about why you know DTN, why they're signing up, why diversity, education, and inclusion is important to them. But but but for me, because they're allocating that at least one hour to meet somebody, that means they mean it because they don't have to do it.
VicYeah, it's the action, isn't it? Again, instead of just the words.
SamUh I like the idea of reaching out your your your organizations' tendrils into networks before you start actively recruiting. That makes an awful lot of sense. So, how can how can our listeners, whether individually or for their companies, get involved?
SPEAKER_00It's great. Well, we we on our website you can book a demo of DTN, whether you're talent or you know, whether you're an organization wanting to sign up and find out more, and we can show you a platform. So we have a talent community which is free, uh, called DTN Community. We have a community for inclusive leaders. So we recognize that some very senior leaders might be time poor, not necessarily responsible for hiring anymore. That's the team underneath them, but they want to diversify their peer group. You know, they want to have a diverse external board or senior leadership team, recognizing that it's going to take time to get that in place. So they can also sign up uh via the website, which is www.diverse talentnetworks.com. Um, we also would say, you know, connect with us on LinkedIn, you know, follow the company page for updates and posts. Um we've got some interesting stuff happening with some guest speakers and guest content that we're going to be sharing as well. And we're we're all about collaboration. So there, if there are other companies, organizations, initiatives out there that want to connect with us, you know, we we'd love to do that. Um, because yeah, we we we can't do this alone. And we recognize that there are communities out there that we could help support, uh, raise the profile of, and vice versa, they could do that for us too. And just leaders that feel that yeah, they've been looking for a way to take action, you know, come and come and connect me on LinkedIn. Let's have a conversation.
SamMakes sense. And would you uh would you summarize? Would you give us three key takeaways for our listeners, if you don't mind?
SPEAKER_00I'm I'm useless at this sort of stuff, but I would say um, you know, widen your circle, you know, make sure you do diversify your network, whether that's through DTN or not, but think about are there people you could be connected to. With that, are different, that will give you that different perspective, that will share the a different lived experience that you will learn something from. I think coming back to what we talked about right at the start, think very much about culture ad, even if you're hiring through traditional means and you know looking at how your team is structured today, you know, who's adding to that culture. Um, and then I think one thing we've recognized throughout this is that a lot of people don't feel they have much influence. And I would say you always have more influence than you think. And I was fortunate to be connected um with a person, an amazing person called Alex Budak, who's written a book called Becoming a Changemaker. Um, and Alex lectures at um UC Barclay in the States, and I think that is a great, I might be getting ahead of myself here, but that but but what I've learned from Alex and others is that you do have more influence. Even if you're sitting there and you might might not be leading a team, you've got influence how you conduct yourself and how others might then start to conduct themselves around you, how you might recognise talent, how you might highlight your own talents and skills. So those those are my three things. Widen your network, think about culture ad and recognize you have more influence than you think.
SamAnd you said you weren't very good at that sort of thing. That was pretty pretty damn concise. So I think you we normally ask people to uh our guests to recommend a book, but I think you might have snuck your uh book. I've done it already, yeah. In there sneakily. Um, but just just could you give us the title of the book again?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's uh becoming a change maker by Alex Budak. There's some really good examples of what you can be doing there in you know, as a as a leader and as a future leader, and again it comes back to that having sort of influence over others and and a positive influence as well. Yeah, becoming a change maker. Making change happen for good. Yeah. So that's my recommendation.
SamNikki, anything to add before we uh bring this up to the first time?
VicI just want to thank thank you both. It's been really insightful. Um, and it is such an important topic. And when I left VMware, I put in my leaving email my um school's Latin motto, which was factor non verbre, which is deeds, not words. And that's what you guys are doing.
SPEAKER_00So um I think it's can we can we can we have to steal that? Deeds words, yeah.
VicYeah, excellent. Well, we'll put um links to your website on the in the show notes. So anything you've got that that we can add to help our listeners, that'd be great.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Brilliant. That's great. Thank you so much, Vicki. And thanks for good to meet you.
SamCheers. Thanks, Steve. Really appreciate that. That was uh absolutely fascinating. And you know, keep keep up the good work, and I hope it's a a massive rip roaring success. So it just remains for me to say thanks for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. As always, your comments, your likes, and your subscriptions are most gratefully received. See you next time.