The Learnings of a CEO Coach - Andy Hunt

We had such fun recording this podcast, it is relevant for everyone. Andy Hunt gives us a sneak peek into the conversations and insights he focuses on as a CEO coach. The lessons Andy shares are not just for CEOs, but for any leader or aspiring leader. 

We touch on a wealth of topics such as:

1) How the best leaders are coaches.
2) Why culture is a vehicle for scale (it's a magnet).
3) The difference between a manager and a leader.  
4) Be humble, be curious. You don't need to have all the answers.
5) Know your blind spots and what to do about them.

Andy talks passionately about the importance of having a coach. "Wherever you are in your career, get a coach. It was life changing for me." 

Enjoy listening. An episode not to be missed!

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https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

Sam 0:10

Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, bringing you stories to help leaders in the tech industry execute at speed through the power of working together. I'm at home in sunny Buckinghamshire. Nice to see the sun at last. Vicki, how's the weather in Deepest Darkest Oxfordshire?

Vic 0:25

Yeah, I was gonna say finally it feels the same as well. It does feel like a nice spring morning because it feels like we've had a very long winter.

Sam 0:32

Yeah, it's gonna chuck it down again this afternoon, apparently. I need to mow the law. It's about a knee high. So there we go. So who have we got on the podcast this morning?

Vic 0:43

Well, we're in for a real treat this morning. So the last podcast we recorded, we spoke about the fact that we are now writing a book. And the reason that we're writing a book, one of the reasons we're writing a book, is because Andy Hunt, who I used to work for at VMware, he and I met up in London not so long ago. And I talked about what we were doing at the Amplified Group, and Andy suggested we write a book. And Andy talked about what he's doing, and I suggested he come on our podcast. So I am absolutely thrilled that we have Mr. Andy Hunt on our podcast this morning. And Sam, I know you know him well as well. So I really appreciate you.

Sam 1:28

Yeah, I I know Andy well from my days of interacting with VMware. Um very fond memories of some of the partner advisory council board type stuff that we did, which is which is great. So it's very very cool to welcome Andy to the podcast. Well, what a build-up! Thank you so much for the introduction. It's fantastic to be here. Great stuff. Thanks. Well, perhaps you could start by giving us some of you something of your illustrious career history and what you're up to these days.

Andy 1:57

Well, yeah, of course. It's it is really great to be here and great to catch up with uh the the two of you for sure. Um a little bit of uh a little bit of background. So yeah, I died out of uni some time ago, or poly, as I triumphantly used to call it, and joined a training company. I was really into outward bounds, being outdoors, and uh I worked for a training company for a wee wee while um helping young people to transition into the workplace, and that was that was great. Uh unfortunately redundancies uh were were abound at the time, and I bounced out of that and uh and then joined the world of banking. I had a career in the city for uh about eight years, working for Nat West. Uh, again found myself in a in a role that the banks were going through, particularly the retail banks, going through that sort of transformation of uh of branches of their retail outlets and all wants to become customer service outlets in terms of instead of the sort of the sort of the classic old banking models. And uh I worked with a team responsible for transitioning the people. Um, how do we decide which people are able to stay? How do we train them? What kind of roles do we need? And that was that was fantastic for a long while. And then, of course, you look at banking sometimes and you think, well, this is a very old industry with lots of rules and regulations. And uh on the other side of the of the of the street, as it were, you see the world of tech that which was making up rules as it went along, and that became incredibly appealing. Um, so I took the the the educational learnings that I had at uh at Nat West and took them to uh a company called Citrix Systems, um, who are relatively young, relatively small, uh operating out of High Wickham. And I joined uh I joined them in in 1999 um to look after their authorized learning sectors and to build a program across Europe, Middle East, and Africa's. And that's where I came across. Vicky, three or four years later, we all seem to be looking outside of our respective companies. The world of startups was was really taking off again. Um and uh one of my colleagues, uh Mark Stradling, left Citrix to set up a company that none of us have ever heard of um called VMware. Uh and within two or three months, he persuaded two or three of us to go join him. Uh so in 2003, I joined VMware um to help them establish and build a channel. Uh, the go-to-market model uh for VMware was going to be a channel-led model, and they needed to build a channel. So I went into as employee number seven to go do that. Did that for a few years, ran the Northern European region uh as sales director for a long while, and then came back to uh being the person in charge of the partners and uh the smaller accounts uh across Europe and in least and Africa, which is where Sam, you and I met, those partner advisory councils, which we which we which we ran, were were some of the most insightful sessions we ever had. And we learned so much by listening to uh to people like you as to what we should be doing and what others were doing and and how we could get better at what we're doing. So that was great. And VMware was a great opportunity for me to learn about startups, scale-ups. VMware then was sold and then went and had an IPO, and so just the scale of uh of how that organization grew over those uh eight years was was was incredible. And in 2014, I took the opportunity to to leave uh and uh the corporate world and largely driven by it's a little bit cliched, I guess, but to I wanted to spend all the time at home. Um my kids had had grown up somehow without me, to the credit of my wife. Uh, but it was a good up a great opportunity to go and really spend some time with them. So I did that for a while. Uh, but in an attempt to get my brain working again, I thought, well, do you know what? What what's what what could I do alongside that? And while I was at VMware, I'd had a very good coach, and I thought, why not go back to school, learn how to be a coach? And that sort of brings us up to relatively recently, and that's what I'm up to now. Great stuff. Wow, fantastic.

Sam 5:44

So, yeah, so you sound like you've really only worked for sort of three-ish different organizations through all that time.

Andy 5:51

And and do you know what? It's every single one of them has been it's been you know, when you're in an organization, because sometimes I'm like Nat West, you work in you know, eight or nine different apartments, you might as well be in eight or nine different companies. So the pace at which VMware went, you know, operated, you start in that sort of startup mode where it's the Wild West and you're never quite sure what's up and what's down, and then you get that massive period of scale up and when you can't move, you can't hire quick enough, and then you go through a little transitionary period, and then someone buys you. So you it almost feels a little bit like you're working for for 20 different companies, even though you're you're in the same wild state. I felt felt very similar with with soft cow, you know.

Sam 6:27

Obviously, we we were we were never sold, but you know, going from 20 people to 1500 people or something like that, it it and the the various different roles, and you know, even if my job title didn't change, the evolution of that role from year to year made it feel like I had umpteen different jobs. Well, I guess I did have umpteen different jobs in that in that nearly 20-year period, so probably similar experience to you, I guess.

Andy 6:51

Yeah, and you you know, you see you you have to evolve as a as a as a person and the skills you have and the people you have around you and how you help them to develop. And not everybody wants to go through all the phases and you have to allow people to move on, you have to bring other people in that have got experience of that. It it's a it's a fascinating uh people uh challenge more than anything else.

Sam 7:10

Uh uh for well, that's what it's all about, isn't it? Um so that probably brings us up to date. So tell us a bit more about your your coaching. Do you have a particular focus?

Andy 7:20

Yeah, no, I I've uh I as I said I had a great coach um when I was at VMware, and you know, he'd sit me down uh once a month, and it was an amazing opportunity just to relief release all the stuff that was in one's head. You know, the biggest challenge you have as a leader, I think, is just the swirl of stuff in your head. And the opportunity once a month to sort of download some of that is incusely powerful. Um and to have someone then to reflect on what you've just downloaded to help you organize that a little bit is is immensely powerful. You add to that the idea that that person that's giving you that feedback has no agenda other than one success. Um it's it's a really unique thing. And I was very fortunate to have, and by the way, he's still my coach uh now, uh, all these years later, but having someone who doesn't have an agenda other than you is is amazing and rewarding. So uh I went back to school and I learned how to be a coach, feeling that somehow I might be able to have something to offer in that regard. And I now have at any time up to about 10 clients, um mostly CEOs. I sort of focused my attention uh on CEOs, not just in tech. Uh some are in tech. Uh I've got some the work in one of them work in recruitment, in uh charities, in engineering, in crypto. So yeah, a range of a range of people, a few actually, uh partner chiefs, uh channel chiefs. So I I've I've kept an interest in that area. So that yeah, that that's something that I find fascinating. Again, I sit down with them once a month and I try and help them figure out whatever's on their mind to organize themselves better. And we can talk talk more about this in a moment, but it's it's it's a fascinating part of my life, you know, not taking up a huge amount of time, um, but a lot of thought, a lot of um uh interesting topics. And alongside that, I I got involved with a VC who focus on the earliest of early stage tech startups. What they do is they they advertise every quarter for people to apply to join their program. They get about two or three thousand applicants, they choose 60, 70 every quarter, sort of split between technical people and sort of commercial people. Uh, they stick them in a room together for a month or so so they can get to meet each other. Their belief uh that this company is called Antler, the belief that Antler have is that co-founders are more likely to be successful than solo founders. So the idea is you go go and find your your partner, come up with a problem that you want to solve and an innovative way of solving it, and then pitch it back to us. Um, and after three months, pitch it back to us. Uh, and if they're successful, they get an investment in sort of classic dragon's dense styling, take a 10% stake in the company uh and help them push on to their next round of investment, their seed round, and move them forward. Uh, and I help again the the CEOs that are formed out of those companies to to really figure out um what their best role is to be and and the how how they become the best versions of themselves through that process. So that that's a great uh uh sideline. Uh sounds really interesting. And and these guys, Sam, have have more ideas before breakfast than I've had in my entire life. So it's quite inspirational. Yeah, yeah.

Sam 10:42

It's almost a case of choosing which ideas not to follow. It's probably as important as choosing which to follow.

Andy 10:50

Yeah. And and actually, you know, the it I'm fascinated by all of these companies are trying to solve the world's problems. Very few of them sort of stand up and say, right, I can make a stack of money by doing this, I'm gonna do this. It doesn't start there. It tends to start with, well, the world is gonna struggle here, or there's an opportunity that we didn't have because the technology is about we can now do things differently or think about things differently. How can we solve the world's problems um through the use of tech in you know, small, medium, and large versions? The money will follow if you get that right, won't it?

Sam 11:24

That's the that's the you know, with the with the the co-charging business that I've been involved in. You know, it was exactly that. You know, how if you if everybody's gonna have to buy an electric car, how are people who live in flats and terraced houses without driveways gonna charge their cars? Well, public charging is expensive, you can't book, um, you know, the the charges are unreliable, but there's an installed base of thousands of charges across the UK on people's driveways that are only in use for a couple of hours a day. So why don't we use that to help people charge? Yeah. And we hope that through that process by taking a commission on the charge, you know, we'll we'll make some money. Um same kind of proposition, I suppose, isn't it?

Vic 12:06

Sure. So our book is based on our four principles of purpose, stress, clarity, and simplicity. And the first chapter around purpose is find your purpose beyond the numbers.

Andy 12:19

Right.

Vic 12:20

Because we we seem to have it the wrong way around in a lot of tech organizations. So it's really great to hear that that's how your startups are thinking.

Andy 12:28

Yeah, and do you know what? You know, that the as as you we may all know, that you know, that the the journey that you're gonna be on if you're starting a company is intense. Um you've you've got to have a purpose, you've got to have a um overuse words, you've got to have a passion for for what you're doing, because certainly for the next five to ten years, every single one of these teams are gonna be at it, you know, so intently with their co-founder, building an organization. You've got to, and it's gonna be ups and downs. So you're gonna have to have uh you're gonna have to be really driven. Um fortunately, most of these guys and girls are.

Sam 13:07

And that purpose then informs the vision. And if everybody can get behind the vision, you're all going in the same direction. And you've got potential possibility to to make something wonderful.

Andy 13:19

Yeah. And I, you know, I what was fascinating about this group is that you know, the we I think something like 40% of the founders are are female, something like, you know, every every cohort, there's something like 20 or 30 countries represented. It's a real diverse group of of people, um, sexual orientation. I mean, it's really you know, trying to solve some of the world's problems from a from a really and London's a great place for that, you know, it's not just you know, it's it's a great coming together of people from all over the world, trying to solve world problems rather than just problems for the UK.

Sam 13:54

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So is there a you know, you've got a relatively diverse group of people there, you know, CEOs of various different businesses, some startups, some channel chiefs. Is there a common theme through all of this?

Andy 14:13

I guess in in some ways, yes, and and of course no, uh, because everyone's different. But um I it what's what I found interesting coming into this in coaching really is that the the the the conversation I reckon 75% of the conversations I have with with with clients are around people. It's not around process, it's not around product, it's not about market, it's largely about people. And it if you think about it, that that sort of makes sense. I I have this rather simple view of the world when with we we we struggle sometimes with the definition of all the differences between management and leadership. And I have this, I I deliberately have this very simple model that says, well, management is about things, leadership, management's a subset of leadership, but map leadership is about people. And so the themes that emerge out of uh most of my coaching conversations are to do with with people, um, which is lucky because I'm fascinated by people. A lot of it's about hiring good people. You know, how do we make sure that we hire a great team? And and some of that is convincing CEOs that they need to hire people better than them.

Vic 15:19

And different to them.

Andy 15:20

Absolutely. Because the tendency is no, I I know I know how to be a salesperson, so I'm gonna hire someone. I mean, they don't need to be as good as no, they need to be better. Every single person, you know, that if you sit around a uh you have a leadership team as a uh as a CEO, and you can look around the table and think you're better at any one of those people, you've you've you've my view, you've failed. You know, you you the only one thing you need to be best at when you sit around that group is getting the best out of your team. Yes. One thing. Everything else, everybody. And and I think in that regard, a lot of the time with these CEOs, that there's the notion that the best CEOs are actually the best coaches. So we spend a lot of time talking about how, as a CEO, do you coach your team, because everybody's different, it's different ways of coaching your team to get the best from them. So I think there's there's something about building a good team and developing a good team. Other things that are perhaps to do with um uh ensuring that we get out of the weeds. You know, I think the tendency when it's when it's our company, it's our business, however, however big or small it is, as a leader, you if you're not careful, you get drawn into the detail. And a lot of the conversations I have with CEOs is trying to help them to lift their heads up and and own, if you like, the the big picture, you know, to to be the storyteller, uh, to be the ambassador for the company. You know, in many respects, the CEOs are the human connector for the company. They're the ones that link the company to the staff, to the to the shareholders, to the customers, um, to partners. And so, you know, getting lifting your head up out of the weeds, building the big picture, building the story and connecting all the parts is is a big part of uh a big theme that we spent on. And another one is is to do with culture, which we sort of say, well, yes, of course it's to do with you know, culture is important. But interestingly, the the topic of culture um is related to scale. And and I've sort of learned over the over the last several years that having a a good culture is really uh about giving you the the the the lever for for scaling, right? So if you have the the right culture, people will come to you. So hiring good people it's a magnet, isn't it? It's a magnet, absolutely right. And particularly if you're in a company that has multiple geography, you can't be in 12 countries. But having a culture that permit you've got you give yourself some comfort that as your team are hiring people, they're hiring with the values that that you sort of set out to or you wanted to establish in your organization. So and and it also has the the the sort of the the monitoring effect as well, because actually if you're if you hire someone who is, I don't know, unwilling or unable to to thrive in that culture, then they either self-select or deselect themselves, or their behavior becomes quite um obvious that that moving them on becomes quite straightforward. And also come back to my point on diversity, it also enables you to you know bring in different people, underlying that is a set of values that they have you have in common. So you have a breadth of views and opinions of the world, but perhaps some cornerstones that that underline the principles of of the business, which I I rather like. So culture as a as a vehicle for scale rather than just we need to have a good culture. And I guess that the the final um I think I'm talking too much, Sam. So do shut me up. Um, no. The final topic is that we spent a lot of time on is be humble, be curious. You know, the the trouble with CEOs, and we've you know, whatever at whatever leadership level is that you you tend to feel that you need to have all the answers. And actually, the worst thing you can do as a CEO is have a sense. Absolutely, is give a sense that you've got to ask the questions, you know, and you've got to listen to the answers. You've got to be very open about your your own limitations. You've got you've got to rather than say, oh, I need people to take risks, you you've got to take risks and you've got to make it very obvious when those risks have failed, and and the fact that people don't get shot for doing so. You're gonna have to, if you like, um be the example uh uh of these things. And you you've sort of got to know your um know your blind spots, both personally and for for the organization. And we spend a lot of time, it's it's an interesting one because all through our lives we we sort of learn that we need to work on the things that we're not so good at. Well, there comes a point in your life and your career where actually you start to sit there and guess, well, actually, is it best for me to spend another three hours a month on working the things I'm bad at or becoming better the things I'm actually bloody good at? And a lot of the conversations with CEOs is based on that topic. You know, how do I how do I work out where my blind spots are? And once I know where they are, do I find a way of solving that myself? Do I find others to do that? Would I be better off to actually spend my time, you know, leveraging the heck out of the things I'm really exceptionally good at? And um or exceptionally passionate about. Yeah, indeed.

Sam 20:35

Yeah, exactly. You know, you're gonna do a better job at the stuff that you're interested in. Yeah, you know, it's like like when people say, Oh, ask me about go to university, or you know, what should I do a particular course so I can get a particular job? And my advice is always start from the point of view of choosing the subject that you're interested in. Yeah. Because you'll do you, you know, you'll do a better job at it and you'll probably get a better degree because of it, and you'll have a much better time. Um, which is why I I ended up doing classic Latin and Greek and stuff, and working my entire career in IT.

Vic 21:08

But it is not it's it's not just about what you're passionate about, it's what you're naturally good at as well, isn't it? So one of the things that we we talk about when we do disc, a lot of what we do now, Andy, I did not know when I was working for you. And I think some of it was subconscious, but it's how you make it more conscious. But one of the things that we talk about with disc is you know, you you know my style, and I'm much more a big picture than in in the weeds and in and in the detail. But that doesn't mean that I can't do detail, but my goodness, it takes me so much energy and so much concentration to do that. Whereas the big picture stuff comes so naturally to me, it feels effortless.

Andy 21:52

Yeah, but one of the things I mean, this is not you know blowing smoke up asses and all that kind of stuff, but but one of things you you were very good at, and I I talk. About this a little bit with my clients is the translation of the detail into something more palatable and manageable. You have the ability to take some quite detailed, complex topics and make it very palatable for numpties like me to be able to understand and take and take and take forward. So that's a real skill for all leaders. You sort of got to understand the detail, but not get buried in it is to be able to tell the story in a way that's really palatable and engaging.

Vic 22:31

Yeah, and actually that's something that I tell a lot of organizations or people that I work with is if you do want to get to a more senior level, you need to be able to translate. Because if you're a leader, you need to have an overview over so many different elements of the business. You need to be able to do that elevator pitch to them. I I remember what one of my most amusing experiences at VMware was I don't think I'd been there very long. I think I'd been there a couple of months, and VMware had an elevator pitch for their um virtual desktop, and it was 30 pages long. And I printed it off, and I remember going into Maurizio's office with it. So Maurizio is the VP of EMIA, and I remember going into his office with it, and he went to put his glasses on. And I said, You don't need to put your glasses on, just tell me, do you know a salesperson that would go through this?

Sam 23:30

And he just went, Yeah. It was some serious elevator, isn't it?

Vic 23:35

Well, it was it's a stuck elevator in my book.

Andy 23:39

Yeah, you're right, it's right. And it's a lot, a lot of it's about just we have this conversation with the um with these tech startups all the time because of course they they bury themselves into these ideas, and actually they've got 10 minutes then after three months of all the stuff that they've immersed themselves in, and actually it's a hard thing to do. You you you're you're desperate to show off and to somehow prove your points, but actually, the skill uh uh of all good leaders is to be able to elevate yourself uh to a point where you can distill it down to your to your magic three points and make and make them um compelling.

Vic 24:16

Yeah, and and you know, as as I said before, so our fourth element in our equation is simplicity. In all the speed checks that we do, and we've done quite a few of them now, simplicity always scores the lowest, it's always the hardest one. And I describe it as it's like the sprinkles on the ice on the cake, because it it's it's the last one that you need to really get right. But you can't say, right, I've got simplicity now. You have to constantly keep working at it. And I we're working on a comms that's going out today for an organization where we're doing a global program. And we said we need a really simple five sentences, that's it. That's no one's gonna read it.

Sam 24:56

Crisp clear English.

Vic 24:58

Yeah, yeah, simple language, yeah, indeed.

Sam 25:04

So, Andy, with all that experience, both yourself in your own roles and all of the people that you've worked with, what would you tell young Andy Jr. however many years ago when you were when you were starting out on this glorious career that you've had?

Andy 25:21

That's uh a good question. I think I was probably quite conservative with a small c uh definitely. Quite quite ambitious. I sort of had a low level of rebelliousness. I didn't I like to challenge, I didn't like rules and people telling me what to do, but I was also very sensible in as much as I thought if I if I take the necessary steps, I my career will develop. Um if I don't muck it up, you know, I had I had sort of, I think I probably had a positive, I sort of expected to to progress. I had no problem with that. Um but you know, having a good CV was was was clearly an important part of my mindset. And I think if I had a conversation with my old self, I'd probably uh I'd probably encourage me to take more risks or or or perhaps bigger risks. It's this though going back to, I mean this um the CV is an analogy more than anything else, but I hate I hate CVs. We we we seem to have long run out of them, and I find that a bit bizarre. We sort of digitize them, and that's uh that's about it. We need to we need to get better at CVs, but it but I in my career, I'm sure the same with you, you I've seen a lot of CVs. And metaphorically, I would almost have in my mind uh I'd have two piles. I'd have perfect CVs and the ones I was gonna look at. Yeah, because the the perfect ones were the ones where I did five years here, I was top of my class, and I did this, I was top of the sales organization, did this, and it's just it's beautiful, but it doesn't give me any sense of person, you know, and and I think if if I'd known that, sorry, I'll make my point and then I'll go better there. So what the the reason you look at the second pile is that you see the wrinkles. You you as an employer, I think you want to see the wrinkles. You want to see where someone has made a decision, we think, whoa, that's a bit left field, that's interesting. I wonder why that why they made that decision. It only lasted nine months. I wonder why, I wonder what they learned in that process, uh and why that didn't work. It but it gives you so much more about the person, about the personality and and and the sense. So I think if I had known that, it would have encouraged me. Um, and I still talk to people about it now. Say, well, I'm not thinking about taking this role, I'm in my 40s, I'm not sure if I want to take the risk. I say, well, you know, a risk, a wrinkle on your CV, look at his benefits.

Vic 27:48

It's learning, isn't it?

Andy 27:49

Yeah. But you know, I think people are more attracted to that than than ones that look quite vanilla and and and too perfect. So that's what I tell myself, I think.

Sam 28:00

I think that makes a lot of sense. When I was reviewing CVs, you'd get the occasional person through who'd try to start their own business and it hadn't gone very well. And I would always, not not quite always, but I would be very much more inclined to see those people because they clearly had some gumption about them and they'd had some good and interesting experiences. And you know, the HR would maybe, well, what if they go off and start their own business again? Well, that's okay. You know, if we if if they work well for us for three years or something like that, we both won, right? Yeah, of course. And you know, probably they'll be entrepreneurial within the business, which is what you want to see, I think, in you know, not in every role, right? But in in most roles, you want people who want to change things and push things forward and make shit happen for want of a better expression.

Andy 28:54

I I think in most cases, I mean clearly you need to you know match that with the kind of organization you're building. And if you need use you do something something a bit different, but I think in in most organizations, particularly in tech, companies that are growing, you need innovation, you need risk takers, you need people that are sort of 80 percenters, you know. Let's let's get let's get you know, let's let's be happy to move forward with 80% of the data um rather than getting to 100%. I I I think uh I think you're right, Sam. I think you you you need to need to see some mistakes, see some wrinkles.

Vic 29:27

I think also for that to really work, because I agree with everything you're saying, but I think you have to have the guardrails in place for that to happen, else you can be going off in so many different directions, then you can be counterproductive as as an organization, I think. I want to go back to um something that you said earlier, because um when you when you were talking specifically about what you see when you're working with CEOs, because something that you said really resonated with me, not not because uh you know Amplified Group is is at the level of the organizations you're working with, but when we first got together as a team to do an off-site, the first time we did it, I was really nervous because I'd got some real talent in the room that would take, you know, giving their time up to come and support Amplified Group. And I was so nervous because I felt like I had to have the answers and be the leader in the room. And going through everything that we now take our clients through, I've started to learn more about myself in this as well. And and the last few um off sides we've had, I've realized that my job is to get the best out of the people in the room and just to be the facilitator and set the scene and have had their input to start with. So we're going to use our time wisely, and then just let magic happen in the room. And and and so, because I really I think I think I had what imposter syndrome previously. I think I had I'm not worthy of having these people in the room supporting my and and I need to impress them. Yeah, whereas whereas now I literally get the right people in the room, we've agreed on what we're working on, and my goodness, I just shut up.

Sam 31:23

Yeah. I think that makes sense.

Andy 31:25

Getting out getting out of the way is sometimes the the biggest uh biggest strength for any leader. Create the framework, bring the right people together, let them have active.

Vic 31:34

Yeah, that but isn't that but that's what you were saying, I think. So but but it's taken me a real long time to actually realize that that's that's my job versus to have the answers because you feel like, well, actually, no, I need to be impressing people. No, you don't.

Andy 31:51

Don't some of that's about confidence. It is, yeah. But some of it's actually for other people, it's about ego.

Vic 31:58

Yes.

Andy 31:58

I need I need to give, I need to, I'm the I'm the boss, I need to be the person who has the answers. I need to be the smart, you know, cliche, but I need to be the smartest person in the room. Um, and and that's uh, you know, we I do work with CEOs on exactly that. It's like you just need to get your ego out of the way because you know, naturally the if you if you are the ceiling, that is as good as the company is going to be.

Vic 32:22

Yeah.

Andy 32:22

If you if you move out of the way and you allow people to be better than you are, whatever their discipline, then there is no ceiling. There is no roof, whatever analogy mixed metaphor you want to use, but it you you know, you move out of the way and you allow people to go past you.

Vic 32:36

And can can you see that happening, Andy?

Andy 32:40

Can I see it happening in companies?

Vic 32:42

Yeah, or can you say is it possible for people to put their if they've got an ego to to move it out of the way?

Andy 32:49

No, I think it is. Can you learn I don't think it's it's right for everybody? Um uh and some people want to be C leaders because they want to be the smartest person in the room. But I I I would um my assessment would be that the most successful organizations are the ones where the leaders do that well. Yes, they could step to one side, they identify and help the the teams that they have around them to step up and they coach them to be better. And again, I get back to my my my view earlier that the only one thing you have to be the best at as the leader of a team is getting the best out of the team.

Vic 33:25

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, brilliant.

Sam 33:31

Yeah, I was gonna ask you for for your takeaways for our listeners, but you know, that kind of is the takeaway, isn't it?

Andy 33:36

Yeah, I mean I think this is this is not supposed to be an advert for for coaches, but I I I you know if if you have an opportunity, wherever you are in your career to get a coach, get a coach. Um, you know, for me it it was life-changing, um, you know, to sort that swirl constant swirl out, to find someone that could be 100% honest with me. I'm not saying that my friends, my partner, but it's but it's just that just having someone that can just look you in the face and and tell you when you're being an arse, and and you think, well, what's your agenda? No, you're gonna have an agenda. That's a good agenda.

Vic 34:13

It's the having no agenda. So wouldn't it be lovely in organizations if you knew the person that you were reporting into, the only agenda they had was your best interests.

Andy 34:24

Yeah, so I think that's true. And uh the the other thing that's uh every every client I have tells me we always have a conversation about the word challenge. I'm I'm reasonably confident the most important job I can have as a coach is to challenge uh my clients. And so I say, okay, well, how much do you want me to challenge you? Oh, challenge me as hard as you like, much as you like. I no one challenges me enough. You need to challenge me. And I said, Well, okay, let's we need to have some sort of safe word because I could read this. This is I could challenge you as well. But it but it but it is I the the the point at which it challenges comes on uncomfortable versus destructive is is where the magic happens. And you need to because you you don't always get challenged properly as a leader and and actually having a country. So so my first key takeaway would be the humility as a as a leader is is the critical for me, oil that makes the hook. Don't don't try and be the best, you know, be humble, uh and and you'll be so much more successful. The the other the other one which um I spent a lot, I think maybe it's just top of mind because I spent the last six or seven weeks with with startups talking about this. But typically, if you if you have a positive attitude of life, you you you assume things are going to well go well, and that's great. But there, and I'm a very positive person. However, I do encourage every team that I work with to imagine the downtime. And do it when you're feeling positive, do it when things are going well, and and don't just assume that when things sorry, first thing is there will always be a tough time. There will always be, and there may be multiple tough times. So rather than worrying about them when you're in it, try and worry about it when you're feeling good, you're feeling positive, and just try and you never never be perfect, but try and imagine what that feels like. Because firstly, it sort of gives it, gives you permission to embrace it when it happens. Well, we we knew this was gonna happen, so now it's happened. Look, we're having a tough time. Good. It also hopefully prepares you a little bit. You sort of have you have a conversation early as a team on how you're gonna deal with the tough times. You're gonna share with each other about how you feel under, you know, how you react when you're under pressure. You you support each other in that because you now know that you know Vicky does this and Sam does that, and Andy does that. So we know how to support each other. But you also create a sort of a process or a form of words. So rather than trying to figure out how to deal with it when you're in the, you figure it out when things are going well. So that that's that's the the the the final argument. And I spend a lot of time talking about how you deal with the tough times when things are.

Vic 36:55

No, that that makes loads of sense because um the first IT leader survey we did, we were looking at size of organization and the age of the organization. And I mean, it comes down to what you were talking about with leadership to start with, in that we found there were quite a few organizations that were still small, even though they had incredible tech, and it's because the leader couldn't let go. So that's to your first point. But what we also talked about was actually what we're trying to do is it is inevitable that you're gonna come to bumps in the road.

Andy 37:26

Yes.

Vic 37:27

And you need to make sure that you're prepared for them. And how do you prepare for them? And how do you build resilience into your organization and into the team so that you're ready? So when that bump happens, which is inevitable, you're ready together to do it.

Sam 37:41

It makes so much sense. I mean, fix the roof, fix the roof when the sun's shining.

Andy 37:46

Or certainly know know how to fix it, you know what I mean? Get the tools ready, get the get the planks ready. You know, rather than thinking now with rain, how do we fix this roof? Oh, we need to go and get no, we we know what to do. We know who's gonna do what, we know who's got different responsibilities, we know how to fix it. And yeah, the the other thing that I uh refer to a lot, and and I hate to refer to um 105-year-old um Japanese uh doctors, but there's a there's a doctor called um uh Shigai Keaki Hinohara, who um uh spent his life, he's he's he's past now, but spent his life talking about how to ling a long life. And I I do spend a lot of time talking talking about it. And he starts with some relatively normal things like eat eat properly. He did he actually ate very little, but eat eat properly, you know, um take the stairs was his was one of his his things, have fun. Um, his his notion was that the rules tire the body, and the having fun, when he challenged the rules, back to what I was saying about myself earlier, it does lift lift the spirit somewhat. He talked about um how how one should focus more on investing in experiences rather than in possessions, which is something that we've often talked about. But the final one, and the reason that sort of builds to this point, and I I referred to this a little earlier, was this notion that we should work for as long as we can. That this notion, a society that we're racing to retirement, and Sam talked about this in sort of retirement uh a little earlier, this notion we're getting to 67 or 65 and we're gonna stop work is is is a nonsense on so many levels, not least of which we agreed those numbers when we were all dying at 70. So it's uh it was a relatively short period of time. Now it's a 20, 30 year uh journey that happens after it. But his notion about living a long life is that you if you're not careful, you associate retirement with this, my purpose is now over.

Vic 39:44

Yeah.

Andy 39:45

Whereas actually the notion should be the purpose, you know, you you to to live a happy and successful life, continue the purpose. You know, his notion was that actually I I want to work, I worked as a doctor until you know two or three years. He wanted to continue to do that because that was his joy, that was his, he wanted to um to share what he knew. See, again, we we we rather get to a point where we say to people, you you've got all this experience after working for 50 years, but when you get to 67, we're not interested. Well, that's freaking stupid, isn't it? Because you've got you've developed all this knowledge, would you not share it for the next 20 years? Because then we could learn from that rather than having to read. And so I'm rather I'm rather tuned into that. And and it's important, I think, for for us all, not just because we're all get to getting older, but it's also important because you start if if if you believe that you're gonna work in inverted commas for longer, the the the income doesn't necessarily stop at 67, it actually starts encouraging people to maybe throttle back a little earlier.

Vic 40:42

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:42

So rather than I'm gonna work my ass off until I'm 67 and I'm gonna stop. Well, actually, maybe I can work a little because I know I'm now I'm working until I'm 70, or in you know, maybe I'll do a little bit less when I'm 50. And I see my kids or my grandchildren or my cousin or play some golf or whatever, whatever the thing is that you want to do, because you can actually see that that that that that um expression.

Vic 41:02

Really lovely, really lovely thought. I um I went into London a few weeks ago, and um somebody asked me in I was in Tame in the morning, and they said, uh, what are you doing this afternoon? I said, I'm I'm going into London. They said, Is that for work or pleasure?

Sam 41:17

My work what was your answer?

Vic 41:18

Well, my work is my pleasure. I love my work. I can't imagine retiring, so it just made me think, ha, I haven't got an answer to that. To your point though, Andy, but uh a lot of our amplifiers are people that have decided that they want to lead the corporate life and they want but they don't want to completely retire. Yeah, they want to stay in it and they want to give back, and that that's actually that's our main recruitment.

Andy 41:42

Yeah, my my my dad used to call it um the third career. He he stopped when he was 67 and he said, Well, you have that career that you fall into by accident, then you have the career that you sort of get to figure out what you like doing and what you enjoy doing, and you suddenly have bills and responsibilities and families, and then you tend to stop. He said, Wouldn't it be great if you had a third career that meant you can keep going? You take some of the things you've learned and you figure out on your terms. On your terms. I have a guy called Bob who who fixes our boiler. We call him Bob the Boiler. Bob is 76 and he's been working on boarders for 60 years. I said to him, Are you not thinking of you know stopping? He said, No, I no one has more knowledge and experience of boarders than me. I I feel I I I owe it to continue. He said, Not only that, he said, Corgi ping me every week, and they say, Okay, next week, what hours do you want to do? And sometimes I say, none. Sometimes I say, Well, actually, I need to get a bit of money in because I want to go on a golf trip in the week after. So I'll I'll give them three hours a day um Tuesday morning, Thursday. He said, That and that way of that's what I mean by taking control, do it on your terms, his terms, he can use his experience to to generate income, to help the world, to pass on his knowledge, um uh on on the basis that he wants to do. And I I love that as a as an analogy for for for how that third career might or should work for for us as we move through. Brilliant. Bob the boiler.

Sam 43:08

Bob Bob the Boiler. Brilliant. Before we let you go, we're approaching the topic of the hour, and I'm sure you've got a million things to do, Andy. But would you just give us a quick book recommendation, please?

Andy 43:20

Um, yeah, I I I do like books. I sort of have an aversion to business books on the whole, but I love sports and I love coaching. Um, and oddly, I love teams, and I say that because I've fallen in love with golf. Um I have an obsession. Um, and there's a book that uh probably the the the GOAT, the greatest of all time, sports uh psychologist, a guy called Bob Rotella, wrote a book called about 30 years ago, called Golf Is Not a Game of Perfect. Which the title I love because you know we tend to watch our sporting heroes uh play golf, and we think, gosh, yes, the reason you won is you were absolutely perfect. Perfect. And in truth, they're not. And there's a lot of great life and business analogies that come out of his book. For example, you know, you know, you've got to be focused on the target, not on the water over here and the bunkers over here. If you start thinking about those, the brain has an amazing ability to help you put the balls in the places you don't want to go. Focus on the target, not just generally, but specifically on a point. He talks about uh building a pre-shot routine where you you know exactly, as you stand up the board, exactly what you're doing. So you can you don't have to think about yeah, you just you just organize yourself and you and you get anything and coaching can help you with with that. He talks about um having a positive, optimistic mindset. You know, it's you know you the you can control that, you can't control everybody else, can't you? But you can control the positive mindset. He talked about uh a putting attitude. So you're standing on the putting green, you know what I mean? Maybe got a big long putt to hit, but you've got to assume you're gonna get it. Every single putt. And he said, but you've got to assume you're gonna get it. We often have conversations with CEOs about every human interaction, it's like that. As a CEO, whoever you're reacting interacting with, you've got to be on it. You've got to assume that that person is gonna be impacted by by what you do, and so the part of that. And his final thing was keep it simple, yeah. You know, and and you know, enjoy getting good. Um, and and I love all that. So um that's my that's my favorite book at that. Brilliant.

Sam 45:27

Yeah. Well, thanks, Andy. That was magnificent. I think we've got an amazing variety of wondrous content there that I'm sure Vicky will have to edit only very slightly, if at all, um, which is brilliant. So thank you for that. We really appreciate it. Sorry, very welcome. I've I've I've enjoyed it.

Andy 45:45

I think it's sorry it's totally taken so long for me to get you get me in the seat.

Sam 45:49

Yes. Yeah, we have been trying for about four years, I think.

Vic 45:52

Yeah, yeah, you were gonna be guest number one, so I'm very glad you've made it.

Sam 45:57

Right. You're welcome. So it just remains for me to say thanks for listening to get Amplified from the Amplified Group. Your comments and your subscriptions are most gratefully received.