The Power of Feedback

We're delighted to welcome back the inspirational Tracy Reis, Head of People and Joint MD at Nomad Studio, the strategy and brand experience company. This conversation felt like an invaluable coaching session on the importance of developing our feedback skills.

Tracy shares her wisdom on how giving feedback is the roadmap to progress, emphasising that timely feedback, when delivered with respect and kindness, is constructive. She explains that feedback is not just about corrections but is a vital opportunity for growth, elevating both personal and team performance. 

This episode is packed with actionable insights you can put into practice right away.

Key Takeaways:

• Building a psychologically safe environment for feedback
• The importance of timely, specific, and constructive feedback
• How to give and receive feedback effectively
• The role of positive and constructive feedback in motivation and performance
• Tips on embedding feedback into workplace culture

Book Recommendations:

Tracy referenced these two books:

• Positive Intelligence: Why Only 20% of Teams and Individuals Achieve Their True Potential AND HOW YOU CAN ACHIEVE YOURS by Shirzad Chamine
• Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience by Brené Brown

Tune in to discover how mastering the art of feedback can transform your personal and professional life.

We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn!

https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Chapters

• 0:09 Feedback and Continuous Improvement in Business
• 14:11 Mastering the Art of Feedback
• 27:06 Feedback and Workplace Communication Dynamics
• 33:54 Feedback and Vulnerability in Leadership
• 43:27 Effective Feedback and Continuous Improvement
• 49:49 The Power of Positive Feedback

Transcript

Sam: 0:09

Welcome to Get Amplified the podcast about teamwork in the tech industry. Gosh, it's gloomy outside today in Buckinghamshire. Vicky how are you in deepest darkness of Oxfordshire. You got the same horrible, miserable drizzly weather as me.

Vicky: 0:22

It is equally gloomyomy, but yesterday was absolutely. It was glorious yeah, it's actually yeah it really was, so we just need to celebrate those gorgeous days yeah, absolutely spring.

Sam: 0:32

It spring will spring fairly soon, I'm sure yeah yeah. So who have we got on the podcast today to brighten up this grim friday?

Vicky: 0:41

oh well, we've definitely got a guest that's going to do that.

Sam: 0:44

No pressure Tracy thanks, I'll try and bring the sunshine. So who have we have got back on the podcast.

Vicky: 0:52

Tracy Reis. So Tracy came on the podcast quite a while ago with Steve Wilson and the topic then was you can't automate kindness. And that podcast has been so popular and since then we have done some more work with Tracy, which I'm sure we'll get into. But it is wonderful, Tracy, to have you back and, as Sam says, I have absolutely no doubt you're going to brighten up our Friday well, thank you so much.

Tracy: 1:21

I mean that's a high bar to reach, but I'll do my best, flying solo without my co-pilot, steve Wilson, and really looking forward to chatting.

Sam: 1:30

Fabulous, wonderful to have you back. So do you want to give us a little update what you've been up to since the last? I can't remember how long ago it was that you were on, it must be a year or two.

Tracy: 1:38

It must be over two years, because Steve and I were both at Syniti so tech sector, very much corporate I decided to leave after sort of best part of 11 years leading.

Sam: 1:51

Wow.

Tracy: 2:07

And I decided to kind of really sharpen my pen and my focus on HR consulting and, more importantly, the coaching side.

Tracy: 2:09

So I'd qualified as a professional coach and I wanted to do more of it.

Tracy: 2:11

I'd done coaching where I was and a friend asked me to get involved with a business in the creative sector and that just kind of snowballed and organically grew.

Tracy: 2:18

So, alongside doing some work with Amplified which is always a joy in July, having brought them into Syniti and seen the power of how they could really improve our team dynamics and ultimately our performance as an exec team, I started working across multiple size, medium size kind of creative agencies and studios to where I land really today, which is a company called Nomad, and I'm head of people and joint MD with our finance director there, which is utterly joyous. I mean I could have given most of the people that I work with. So it's quite a different world to the tech world where they're all kind of my generation but they work with the sort of biggest, brightest brands in the world and their philosophy is to help them shine, to be their absolute brightest and to keep moving forward. So that really plays into how my personal beliefs in people and talent and how we should be looking to attract them and retain them and develop them when they're in businesses. So they lead with kindness which, as you know from the previous, is a massive thing for me, really important.

Tracy: 3:25

Yeah, prerequisite. So super happy spot I find myself in today, fab, fab Well that's brilliant.

Sam: 3:34

As I said, welcome back. We're talking about feedback today, yeah, so, as you know, people HRE type stuff. Presumably you have to give feedback quite a lot if you're in a business that's focused on kindness. Sometimes maybe that feedback needs to be a little direct is is giving? Is this stuff important? How important is it?

Tracy: 3:58

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really. You know, there's kind of two hats that I wear, which is the coach hat, and therefore, in my experience, leaders, creatives, thought leaders all have one thing in common that they seek feedback relentlessly. In HR, yes, of course you have to give feedback. I still believe you can do that with dignity, respect and kindness, even if it is correctional feedback. But I think that the most important thing is that the work that I've done with Amplified around, you know, trying to create high performing teams is you just don't settle, you've got to constantly evolve.

Tracy: 4:31

You know the right feedback at the right time can be the difference between, like, stagnation or transformation. You know, just in with the two hats, it can be someone sort of really applying that growth mindset and seeking out the coaching to be able to get that feedback and be the best version of themselves. But equally, in HR, you know it can be, uh, working with teams. Um, it can be working with individuals to make sure that we can really not operate in an echo chamber of our own. Really, you know we don't read minds and if we don't ask, how do we know?

Sam: 5:09

yeah, yeah. So I guess you you know it sounds like you're quite reliant on people asking for feedback. How do you do it if they're not asking for feedback? But you know it needs to be given?

Tracy: 5:19

yes, you do need to give feedback. Any good manager needs to be able to give the feedback. It's the biggest gift you can give someone really, and it should not be a criticism. You know people sort of get reluctant to give it and they say nothing, um, because it might be a bit awkward or an unpleasant conversation. But it's not. It's the roadmap to getting better and improving. And, as I said before, you know people aren't mind readers, so how can you position them for success, um, if you don't give them the tools and the information of you know what you expect and where? I think that can be an opportunity to really sort of help direct somebody's progress, whether it is a moment to kind of celebrate a huge achievement and reward and encourage continued behavior in that regard, or whether it's indeed correctional. But I think it's important that it's not personal and it's specific, it's timely.

Sam: 6:13

It's for the benefit of the recipient.

Tracy: 6:16

Absolutely, and that it's timely, right? I mean, I think there's nothing worse than you get into your end of year appraisal and your manager's got you know a shopping list of correctional oh gosh I used to hate the appraisal thing for exactly that reason.

Sam: 6:30

You know, if I had, yeah, typically weekly or or bi-weekly meetings with my reports and I would want to give them feedback, then or you know, or just pick up the phone or just pitch up at their desk if it was something that needed to be sent away. But annual feedback just sounds rubbish to me.

Tracy: 6:50

I mean, that is a moment to kind of do your rearview mirror and celebrate your achievements and bring it all together.

Tracy: 6:57

But I think timely feedback I'm not advocating places where it's's not psychologically safe, you know, not over the coffee machine and not in the corridor, you know make sure the person is prepared for it. But in the moment, if you've done a, if you've delivered um a presentation to a client and you haven't done it well and you went off topic and it was long and it should have been condensed and the story didn't convey, there's nothing more powerful than being able to say you know, look, I applaud you for doing that. It was a tricky story to convey, but I think we lost our way a little bit. You opened strongly. We need to really focus on bringing it home and you know we needed some more visuals in there. So let's look at how we can do that better in the future, because that one really wasn't a stellar performance. I think giving it in the moment gives the person the tools to really own their own success next time rather than, oh, six months ago you delivered two and it really wasn't very good.

Sam: 8:00

Well, I like it. It's not like training a dog, but there are some similarities in a way, in that if a dog I'm a big believer in positive reinforcement with management as well as animals you know, if you want to train a dog, if you give them the reward immediately that they've done the thing that you want them to do, they get it. Whereas if you wait and you disconnect those two things, the further apart the the happening and the feedback about the happening are, the less effective it is, I feel yeah, I think you're absolutely right, sam.

Tracy: 8:35

The only thing that I would say in dog training is that you know from having a very naughty misbehaving. You know, they say reward the good and ignore the bad. I would not call the bad in a business sense. I think, that feedback is as powerful and you know I've had people that have been put on performance improvement programs and giving them the clarity of where they're not showing up and the gaps that they've got has empowered them to be the best versions of themselves and actually go on.

Tracy: 9:06

It's not a mechanism to tick box somebody out of an organization.

Sam: 9:09

It's actually giving them the tools and to keep them in the organisation, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, I just want to say something before we go any further.

Vicky: 9:17

Just listening to the way you told that story, tracy, that scenario of the person not telling the best story in a, in a, in a client situation, how you describe that. You didn't say you once, you used we the whole way through that is that a learned behavior? Is that an intentional thing? I think.

Tracy: 9:41

I'm always very mindful of a judgment. I really like the power of a question or I firmly believe that you need to show up with what good looks like. That's part of feedback. You know, live your life like a mirror and if you want a team mentality, you need to be part of that team. It needs to be a we. You know, if punctuality is important for you, show up on time. If not raising your voice and showing aggression is important to you, don't do it yourself. I just think you need to be in it with them so that you're not judging an individual. It's not a personal attack on their character. You know this is just business and we're all to be the best versions of ourselves that we can be.

Sam: 10:26

Yeah, I think that makes sense. Is there any more advice on how to deliver this stuff? I just I remember the probably the worst management training course I ever went on. The sandwich, the shit sandwich yeah, am I allowed to use that expression?

Tracy: 10:39

Yes, praise sandwich.

Sam: 10:41

Now it's called the praise sandwich, now the Praise Sandwich. Yeah, I mean, it was just awful, you know, and so transparent. If you, you know, I guess I believed in just being direct with people, not, you know, not impolite and, you know, definitely praising the things that they were doing, right. But if you're going to give feedback, it's's got to be crisp and clearly received, hasn't it not not sort of smuggled in somehow?

Tracy: 11:12

Yeah, and I think it's not going to be based on a feeling or a perception. You know it really. The more evidence-based it can be, the more clarity you can give to the individual when you observe that behaviour, or when you observe that competence, and how you want to pick up it. The more, the more powerful and the kinder it is. Yeah, I think really avoiding those kind of personal attacks I mean, as I said, your first, first and foremost is, like you know, your team are going to take their cues from you.

Tracy: 11:42

So make sure that you're living your life like a mirror. Give out what you want to see back and then share it frequently. But create a space for it. It needs to be psychologically safe and prepare yourself. I don't mean script it, so you're reading off the script and you're so lost in the delivery of the lines you forget to listen, because, ultimately, listening is the superpower. But do be for it. You know, none of us, as who have had the joy of being managers, are ever eager to do something badly, but often people avoid saying something, um, because they're so fearful. And you've got to remember it's not about you, right, it's about them.

Tracy: 12:23

The gift you give them with the experience or the observations that you've made is so powerful. And I think the more that they can you can build that trust and that muscle memory of feedback, the less people wince when you come to talk to them. It's like what are they going to? You know, people are fearful sometimes of certain characters, of like. Well, the only time they talk to me is when I've done something bad or they want to correct me. It's this kind of wincing situation that goes on. So I think if you can just make it a culture that you, that thrives in your environment, whereby you know I really loved what you did there, how you managed that really difficult client was amazing and, um, I think we could all really take you know a lesson from you on that that's off is as powerful, um, to encourage that behavior across the organization, to build that trust the person knows when you talk to them it's not just always corrective. You know is really you know news is not good news.

Vicky: 13:22

In my yeah, no, absolutely. I've just had an aha moment. Oh wow, so that wincing that you were just talking about when I first got into tech, so I came in almost as an as an intern and I was like an internal support person. The person that I was working for didn't say anything to me apart from she would start with I'm not being funny, vicky, but and I had a year of that to start with and my wincing because in preparation for this podcast today, I was thinking about and one of the other things you've said is about make sure the person that's receiving it is prepared Is I have to work.

Vicky: 14:11

I know where I am from a DiSC perspective, I know I'm very natural in where I am on disc and my bad behaviour in conflict. It's what you would expect, if you like, for my character type. It's what you would expect, if you like, for my character type, but I would get feedback and immediately be defensive about it. This is me. Previously, I'd really be defensive about it. My automatic is there's an excuse for it, there's a reason for it, whereas now, if I'm getting feedback and I'm not expecting it, I still have to have a word with myself and go shush, because very often I will take that feedback. I'll go away and think about it and go. Actually they're right.

Vicky: 14:52

But my automatic response is no. I'm disagreeing with you because I'm.

Sam: 14:58

I'm being defensive, I'm standing up for myself, but well, none of none of us like it, do we no? But you know you learn to like it. Yeah, because you realise that it, do we no, but it's you learn to like it.

Vicky: 15:05

Yeah, it's learning to like it, because you realise that it's positive for you.

Vicky: 15:08

But it's interesting because Tracy then said about if you're prepared for feedback and you also said in your opening, tracy, about the exec teams you work with are inviting feedback. So I'm now inviting feedback all the time. How did I do? I ask my team. I'll ask time. How did I do? I asked my team, I'll ask clients. How did I do? Because I'm looking to get better, but because I'm asking for it, I'm mentally prepared for it as well, and I still have to have a word with myself and go right, take it on the chin, because you're going to learn from this, yeah, and I think we've got the benefit of knowing that.

Tracy: 15:41

We've been in the professional world for a more foundational level. I think what they the biggest? You know we talk about mastering the art of giving and receiving feedback. It is mastering the arts, like the art of delegation, when you're, yeah, senior. It is a skill to develop, as you rightly say, sam. But I think really and truly the biggest piece of advice I could give to someone at the outset of their career is if someone's prepared to invest their time and interest in you by giving feedback, you matter. The worst thing is no, because they're actually pretty disengaged from you, they're not noticing you and therefore there's no concerted effort for them to realize your potential or retain you in the organization. So actually it's a massive investment of their time and energy to give you that feedback because they're seeing that potential, particularly when sometimes it's not easy to give difficult feedback totally, totally.

Tracy: 16:55

But I think the big landmine that people fall down on is that. You know, my motto is no surprises. Yeah, walk into an appraisal or a probation review is a great example of that and you're going to say to somebody look, we're not seeing a stellar performance and we're not going to continue and we're actually going to let you go from the organization. You haven't passed your probation.

Tracy: 17:19

Yeah, if that's an absolute, you know, bolt from the blue, exactly One, what does it say about the organisation? But two, that's a massive surprise and you will be met with defence and likely a hugely emotional reaction that could be tears or could be aggression. You know it would be a really unpleasant experience whereby if, leading up to those three weeks, you've had those regular check-ins and you know that the individual thinks that they're knocking it out the park and you've had to do a bit of course correction to say, well, look, you know you're a really lovely individual, but you're not meeting expectations for this organisation at this level and we really need to focus on da-da-da-da-da-da. That interaction is going to be so much easier when you've got to rip the band-aid off and deliver the really bad news because you've done the prep leading up to it.

Sam: 18:12

You do occasionally get someone who just doesn't get it, however hard you try though.

Tracy: 18:17

Yeah, yeah, and.

Tracy: 18:18

I think, you know that's the power of silence, right? Don't be afraid to. You know, when you've said what you need to say, you don't need to keep. You know it's not death by a thousand cuts. You don't need to keep drilling the point. If you've said it and you let it land and often I use the language of look, it appears that this is new news to you. So I'm going to let that land with you and give you time to process it. Do you want to regroup tomorrow, because I'm going around the horn to try to see my point of view that's a really, really good point.

Vicky: 18:51

You know, once it has landed, then you've got more rational thinking as a response back and then you can have a more constructive conversation about what. What can you do differently?

Tracy: 19:00

yeah, totally, and that's where I think it's so important that you give the individual the gift of being really specific. You know it's not. It's not. I feel you're a bit disengaged. What are they going to do with that? I feel you're a bit disengaged. Where, where do you go with that, if you can actually say I've observed in that client feedback call, you were on your phone, you were slumped in the chair, you made no eye contact with the client. How do you think that came across? Yeah, that's much more. For those of you who can't see, sam is now doing that.

Sam: 19:38

Just to get a laugh.

Tracy: 19:40

No, you were just indicating the point, which is really great, I mean for me. I just think as well you can use your own feelings in the sense of um, if somebody's voice really speeds up, I'm feeling anxious listening to you. Let's talk about that rather than a judgment of you're anxious because I don't know how they feel. So you can use your own body and your own feelings to reflect how you're feeling with that interaction, but don't inflict that judgment on the individual yeah, do you know something?

Vicky: 20:12

that's just made me also think, because you know, I've hope I've got a lot better at giving feedback and actually I had to have a really difficult conversation last week, but I prepare for it now with rather than the judgmental stuff that I think I probably would have done had I not learned how to do it differently With the how do you think it's going, and I have my set of questions so that they arrive to where I need them to get to themselves to where I need them to get to themselves.

Vicky: 20:45

I also have found that me being a little bit vulnerable in the situation and say I'm finding this quite a hard conversation too.

Tracy: 20:50

It's brilliant, yeah, brilliant. I think also it's a safety announcement. That's what I think. Yeah, if you turn around and say to someone look, I'm going to tell you at the outset this is not going to be an easy conversation for either of us, yes, while literally I'm going to tell you at the outset this is not going to be an easy conversation for either of us, yes, you are literally signalling okay, so don't fanny about talking about the weather and, you know, going around the houses. And then your final statement, before you run out the room because you feel so uncomfortable stating it is a bit of correctional feedback, I think. Just signify it at the beginning, give the safety announcement a bit like if you were on an aeroplane it's going to be a bit turbulent, Right? Yeah, yeah.

Vicky: 21:27

Let's get comfortable with that. Yeah, but what you've just said again is you said this isn't going to be an uncomfortable conversation for you. This is going to be an uncomfortable conversation for both of us.

Tracy: 21:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think you know in terms of how you receive it, you know the biggest, I just think, on top of what we've said, is that if you can listen and try and maintain that positive attitude and growth mindset, but really knowing it is a skill you've got to develop, it's a professional skill that you've got to develop and it will serve you so well that person is really investing in you. And then really try and reflect that it's a critique of your actions and performance, not a judgment of your character.

Vicky: 22:13

Yeah, saying you're a terrible we're all learning, aren't we always?

Tracy: 22:17

yeah, so trying to depersonalize it and not take it personally is a real skill to develop, but something that will stand you in such good stead as you move forward.

Vicky: 22:27

Yeah, Feedback doesn't have to be negative either, does it? It can be positive too. So as we joined this call today, you witnessed me literally wiping tears from my eyes from some feedback that I'd had from a group of students at the university that I'm supporting on. I'd given them some coaching on, or some some actually some pretty tough feedback on a presentation that they were about to deliver as their final module of their entire degree and I I'd given them some fairly tough feedback on it and literally their feedback today on how it had gone put tears in my eyes because they were so grateful.

Sam: 23:10

What you call tough love.

Vicky: 23:12

Yeah, but it was because I cared about them and I was invested in them and I really wanted them to do well, because I believed in them.

Tracy: 23:18

Well, I think also, you've positioned them for success right, instead of failure.

Vicky: 23:23

If you said nothing and been like, yeah, that's fine, yeah, delivery was going to be a bit rough and it wasn't going to be as impactful as it could have been, yeah, you've positioned them to fail, yeah it's exquisite, but um so when I first got introduced to Patrick Lencioni's methodology and he was talking about accountability and he talked about giving feedback is a gift, that's the first time I'd heard that term and I thought what a load of baloney. So this is me doing 20 gosh, 23 years in corporate and never thinking of it like that, and I really did think it was baloney. But now I understand why he says that, but I didn't understand it at all to start with. So we've come a long way, haven't we?

Tracy: 24:10

we have come a long way and I think that it is the biggest signal that you can give to someone in your ecosystem that you care, yeah, care, how they show up, how they perform. You know their success matters to you, you see their potential and so I think the more that we can encourage that as leaders ourselves, the more that we can show up doing it, the more that people can see it. And to your point, positivity is, you know, taking a moment to us to celebrate achievements. Yeah, so well in education and so poorly in the professional environment.

Tracy: 24:53

Yeah, you know you don't get a sticker at work for a good job, do you know? Yeah, uh, you know you don't get to bring the teddy bear home right the diary weekend. You don't get any of those signals that things are going well. It's just like well, no news, I guess is good news, and I'll find out at the end of year appraisal and with my pay rise, that's not helpful and it doesn't create a culture that can thrive and that can, you know, be agile and that can be transformational to a business.

Vicky: 25:22

So I think, as much feedback positive, negative and anywhere in between that you can offer, take that, take the, the stuff that we learn in education and bring it into the workplace because it's powerful yeah, you know, we, as you know from working with us, we, um, when we've done the first intervention with a team, we identify the things that they need to work on, the behaviours that they need to work on, and, as you know, we track them. For six months we do a team dashboard I'd say one of the things that we have on there, because the team comes up with it. Every dashboard is unique to the team, but I think I'm trying to think of an instance where we haven't had this, because the team comes up with it. Every dashboard is unique to the team, but I think I'm trying to think of an instance where we haven't had this. But giving feedback to each other is always one that the team identify that they need to do more of, and positive feedback.

Vicky: 26:17

I heard of an instance recently where somebody was asked to meet their boss and they didn't know whether they were going to that meeting to get fired yeah, to get let go and they got a significant pay rise. Yeah, and they had no idea that. They actually thought, well, this is, this is the time where we're at risk I don't know if this is that meeting then got a massive pay rise from it exactly, and the amount of people that say to me oh, I dread that word, catch-up going in my diary.

Tracy: 26:48

What does catch-up mean? It's awful, isn't it, to be thinking to have fear for a catch-up. It should genuinely be a catch-up, right, yeah, of your, the way that your culture works and it's it's familiar and you can trust it and you can trust the individual that's delivering it. I think if you have a manager or you're a line manager and you're able to trust what how they show up when they give you feedback, that it matters, that it has impact, that you can trust it. They've got your best interests at heart. You know that's really powerful. But it's a dreadful situation to have catch-up being a feared meeting.

Sam: 27:31

Yeah, that's why I like the regularity of you know. If you know you've got a catch-up every week or every two weeks or every, you know whatever. Whatever the cadence is that works for your particular situation, then, a the feedback is ongoing, continual and B it never comes as a surprise when you get it. And you haven't got that. Oh, my manager's asked me for a meeting. How am I going to get the boot? Kind of fear.

Tracy: 28:00

It should never be just one way, right. Right, it's a two-way conversation, exactly. It can unlock something that you know. If you can say is that what more do you need from me? How else can I help you navigate and give me feedback your career path and you might find out that actually something either is going on for them personally or that there's a real personality conflict in the organisation, or that they haven't been able to tell you that they think that client's at risk. It can unlock so much if it becomes a two way. It doesn't have to be one on transmit and one on receive, and then that's yeah well, you said something earlier.

Vicky: 28:41

You said, and I think this is going to be we like to take quotes out of our podcast. But you said something earlier. You said, and I think this is going to be we like to take quotes out of our podcast. But you said listening is the superpower.

Sam: 28:46

Yeah yeah, and people are nervous about giving their boss feedback, aren't they? I used to say something along the lines of what could I do to help you do your job better, or something like that. Just, you know, trying to, because that depersonalizes the feedback, and maybe depersonalizing is. I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? Because sometimes this stuff is quite personal.

Vicky: 29:11

But yes, they're making it out the job you don't want to make.

Sam: 29:15

Yeah, you don't want to make it appear that it's a personal attack on someone's it could be, I just need more time with you yeah, and.

Tracy: 29:22

I feel like our meetings get bumped a lot and that makes me feel like I'm not really important.

Vicky: 29:28

Yeah, actually I just need and that happens a lot, doesn't it? Yeah?

Sam: 29:32

I had.

Vicky: 29:32

I had an instance, actually probably about two months ago, with somebody that I've coached for quite a long time now and he was telling me that he was reducing his team meetings from weekly to fortnightly. And he looked at me as he was saying it and he went I've got that wrong, haven't I? He could just tell by my face yes, priorities, if you get your team right, then your clients are right, yeah.

Tracy: 30:02

Also Vicky's. It's the unlocking of understanding the differences on disc right. Yes, the way to really irritate me is come to me 10 times in a day. If you come to me once with 10 things on your list, you're going to get the best of me. If you're going to interrupt me 10 times because you need clarity throughout the day, you're going to get the worst of me. Understanding that as the outset, that the two different working styles and who needs what from each other is I'm not. Yeah, I'm not going to be there 10 times for you. I just like to show up once and do the 10 things and do it 10 times over. That can be. That can solve a niggle that becomes a rub, that becomes a major issue that could have an impact on the longevity of that person staying in the organization.

Vicky: 30:48

Yeah, that's why, when we do a workshop, we start with DISC or a version of that, but understanding each other's work styles, because we do that, and then we put people in the groups that are those work styles. That completely depersonalizes it, because people can relate to different work style types. Then, and it's and we always say that you will move around disc depending. The whole thing is this is your starting point, this is where you use the least amount of energy, this is your natural point. So just have that conscious of not just yourself, but the rest of the team as well, and that makes a massive difference.

Vicky: 31:26

Just, I keep doing this, but I want to go back to that catch-up thing, because it's not just putting a catch-up meeting in, and I want to give you a real example. I'm sure people won't mind this. Uh, so pip's part of our Amplified team, as you know, and she's full time with us, and you know Pippa well. When we first started working together, I would send her a WhatsApp saying can we have a catch up, and she told me that that would put her heart in her mouth every time.

Sam: 32:00

She thought you were going to fire her.

Vicky: 32:01

Fire her or have a difficult conversation about something. So I've now put can we have a quick catch up about? And I'm specific about it, so she knows. So it's back to your specificity, tracy, if she knows what that's about and it's not usually feedback. Yesterday it was a can we have a quick catch up? I've seen there's an AI seminar on this afternoon and we need one of us on it. Can you go on it? But if I'd have just said can we have a catch up?

Tracy: 32:27

Yeah, and I think it's that word specificity, right, it's, is it expected If it's a monthly catch up and you have that and it's expected, it feels safe.

Vicky: 32:36

Yeah.

Tracy: 32:37

If it's a request out of the blue for a catch up, being able to give your safety announcement, yes, lie. If it's going to be a difficult one, you can say look, given the past week's performance or interactions or difficulties with the client, I think it'd be good if we had a catch up. So you're saying what you're going to talk about, yeah, or it could just be listen. You did an amazing job on that presentation. We haven't had a minute to catch up on it. Let's connect.

Sam: 33:06

Let's do a debrief, yeah.

Tracy: 33:09

Your safety announcement's important if it's not expected.

Vicky: 33:12

Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 33:15

Interesting. I've got a question. Oh, go on. What's the most useful bit of feedback that you two have been given? And I'll tell you mine after.

Vicky: 33:23

Oh, I've got mine definitely.

Sam: 33:24

Go on, then, vicky, you can go first.

Vicky: 33:26

Oh, mine was Vicky. This is going to make you laugh so much, Vicky. You have two ears and one mouth.

Sam: 33:35

Use them in those proportions.

Vicky: 33:37

That was from Stefan Sjostrom at a Microsoft exec conference and, my God, it stayed with me. And at VMware, the emblem for our team was a tiny person with gigantic ears. Yeah, it's really stuck with me. Yeah.

Sam: 33:53

It's a good one that. What about you, tracy?

Tracy: 33:58

I think that, and it was a coaching course that I was on and it's actually I know we talk about books, but it was actually understanding what your saboteurs are, and I used to leave a room with the to-do list because I was the fixer. I was going to come in and rescue you, I was going to correct you all and I am the fixer. So it is being comfortable, tracy. You need to be comfortable that the individual owns their success and not yes, yeah.

Vicky: 34:33

Great, I can really see that from you are on disc as well Tracy, or where you start on disc.

Tracy: 34:40

It was so great because I was actually it was actually detrimental to the individual. I was disempowering them. I was sending a message that said I don't believe you can sort this out on your own and get to where you need. You need me to come in like your knight in shining armor and I need to fix it and be the hero of the hour. And actually what I was doing was just creating a very passive team that all the time that there was no proactivity and they weren't you know, they were completely reliant on me, and that was all quite rich and fulfilling for me at that time and I really needed to understand that. I needed to show trust and belief in them by saying you own this, you know how do you think that this could be better and you know how are you going to move this forward. So asking lots of questions rather than giving all the solutions brilliant, good stuff.

Vicky: 35:36

Sam, what's yours?

Sam: 35:38

Well, yeah, so I mean a couple, most both from Martin, you know, Softcat legend MD, then CEO, then chairman, and you know this was relatively early in my sort of becoming senior career, I suppose, and the first piece of feedback I had was in in management meetings I was always ready with a quip or a comment or a you know some, and that was. You know the environment at Softcat was. I hate the word banter, because banter is usually an excuse for somebody to be really nasty to someone and then try and pass it off as a joke. In Softcat there was genuine banter, you know a lot of sort of teasing and we have it in amplifying, yeah, yeah and and I think I think that's really positive and really important.

Sam: 36:24

But Martin took me aside after a management meeting and he said you know, you just got to ratchet that stuff back because you know you're so quick with some of this stuff and so sharp, actually some people are finding it a bit, almost intimidating. Yeah, you need to just ratchet it back and you know that was totally and utterly fair enough, but difficult, you know, difficult to receive. And you know, Martin, again probably similar sort of timescale, just encouraging, probably almost the opposite to what Tracy had where you know, Sam, you've got to make sure that you actually follow up on this stuff. You know you're full of ideas, but you've got to actually make sure this stuff gets delivered because otherwise it doesn't mean anything, something along those lines and again.

Sam: 37:10

He was right. You know he did to make I. I was trying to do a million different things all at once. Um, with the right intentions, but actually I needed you know a bit like your thing about priorities. If you've got 27 priorities, you haven't got any priorities. You know it's a bit. What are the bits? Get them done.

Tracy: 37:27

But I think also, you know, being able to show that vulnerability as a leader. Right, I mean, I'm filing, I'm not going to pretend I'm not. Some people don't like doing presentations and speaking in front of people. Yeah, I'd much rather do that than sit and actually worry about the filing configuration, so being able to say what I'm comfortable with. And for you, sam, I've worked with many people that, yeah, I would call them starters but not finishers.

Tracy: 37:51

You know they have the brilliant ideas that would transform an organisation. They just needed someone else behind to be able to finish it and do the detail and being able to be that complement to one another. We don't good at the same stuff. We don't want clones and robots. We want humans with flaws and vulnerabilities. But if you can be open in your feedback about yourself, where you thrive and where you don't, and where you need, you know, I recognize you're really strong at this and together we could be an awesome team. That's that's. It doesn't all. When we talk about, feedback can often always feel like it's correctional, right, so it can be praised, as we talked about earlier, but equally sharing those vulnerabilities to get the best out of one another.

Vicky: 38:34

That's the tone, doesn't it totally? Yeah, yeah, it really does. And I I have found and I think we talked about it a little bit with mark templeton on the christmas special. I have felt it really empowering to go. Do you know what?

Vicky: 38:49

I haven't got all the answers here and I remember we had an Amplified Group team meeting Dynatrace way, way back, Tracy, that you came to and I've really felt the pressure on for me to really perform at that, but I didn't. I just needed to create the environment for all those amazing brains that were in the room. Yeah, and I've really learned that because it is that collaboration.

Tracy: 39:12

It's not just one person transmitting and then you've got a load of passive sponges just on receive. I think you know that's why the job I'm doing now is joint MD. I'm all about the people and the words, but I hope it's the numbers. So I've partnered up with a FD. She's got the spreadsheets and the numbers. Yeah, no shame in saying that's your bag not mine, yeah, no, no, exactly.

Vicky: 39:32

It's really empowering, isn't it? It's really, but I, you know I've said this multiple times on the podcast, but the mantra for leadership from General Stanley McChrystal of leading like a gardener and setting the environment for everyone else to flourish, I just love that.

Tracy: 39:53

Yeah, no, I think that there's nothing more important than you know show it, setting what good looks like. You know, create that environment, nurture it, and it will thrive.

Vicky: 40:03

Yeah, yeah, very cool that environment nurture it and it will thrive. Yeah, yeah, very cool what about receiving feedback?

Sam: 40:08

How do you take it? How do you follow up on it? How do you? Are you good, Vicky? Are you good at receiving feedback?

Vicky: 40:16

I'm a lot better than I was, because I literally zip it, because I know I I've reflected on feedback so much now that I know I'm going to learn something from it and I tend to always agree with it. But I don't agree with it in the moment usually because I'm defensive.

Vicky: 40:33

But usually because I'm not expecting it. If I've got my barriers ready and I know to zip it and I'll go away and sleep on it, I'll come back and go. Do you know what? You were right and I've learned to not go. No, I don't agree with you. Of course I'm perfect.

Tracy: 40:49

Yeah, I think that's because you need to be prepared to receive it Right. And if you are prepared to receive it, I think the power of language is really important. If you are able to capture the words the individual uses their language. You don't take it away and catastrophize that they think I'm absolutely useless and I can't do my job and, oh my goodness, I'm going to be put on a performance plan and this is a disaster, because if you've written down their language that actually they're just saying you need to improve your visuals in your slide deck, or there's a you know how you tell the story needs to be more concise, or there's a punctuality If it's a correctional piece of feedback, try and actually capture what the individual is saying to you so you don't take it away and catastrophize it into something bigger.

Vicky: 41:36

Actually, that's a really good point, because quite often someone can say something to you and you're making your own narrative up in your head. And I know I remember Louis G telling me about his son and saying how he could say 25 good things to Sean, but he'd only remember the one bad thing. And I've really experienced that with my teenage daughter. I can tell her how brilliant she is, but the one because I'm smiling here does this hit a nerve with you as well of the. I'll just say one thing that I'm looking to to help her with and she'll bite your head off and she'll bite my head.

Vicky: 42:17

Well, yeah, she'll bite my head off. She's got. We've got better at it. I have to say we've learned to navigate it. But she'll blow it up all out of proportion and that's the only thing she's heard in a professional context, I'm not going to deem to delve into parenting.

Tracy: 42:35

You know I've made my own mistakes and I'm no stellar parent, so you know I'm not going to go there. But in a professional sense, the danger of telling somebody that you're brilliant, but we just need to work on this one thing is brilliant, is too loosey-goosey. Yes, yeah, brilliant, because you've given them no specific examples and it feels like it's fluff and bluster. Yeah, it's like you're just saying that to make this next thing land better. Yeah, be as specific about the good stuff.

Vicky: 43:04

Yeah.

Tracy: 43:05

And about the correctional stuff. That's when it starts to be more impactful and more trusted and met with less emotional defense or reaction. Yeah, I think the other thing is it's not a one and done. It's not like great, that conversation is over, I've done it. It was tricky conversation. I've done it Lovely, I I'm out of the door. Let's have a cup of tea and move on.

Tracy: 43:27

You know, you've got to make sure, both as the individual, the recipient receiving it, that you've got an action plan moving forward, you've got the, the mechanisms in place to be able to ensure that you're getting the feedback on what you hope to be improved performance. And equally, if you're the one delivering it, you need to be improved performance. And equally, if you're the one delivering it, you need to be sharing those moments of where you notice progress has maybe been too slow or you've really seen improvement. You know I've just done two appraisals at the end of last year and there were two very specific things that we were asking these two individuals very differently to focus on, and I observed it firsthand on one and I got feedback from someone else on the other. Neither one of them had received that, so I immediately had a quick moment with them to say let's just jump in a meeting room, I've just got something positive to share with you. And again it's-.

Sam: 44:21

Can we have a catch up?

Tracy: 44:23

It was something positive to share with you, because I'm going to give you the safety announcement this isn't a scary conversation. Yeah, try and really feed that behavior. What they were doing, how they were showing up, how they reflected on that feedback and really were turning it around, was really important that they saw that it was noticed and it mattered and it's different and we appreciated it. Um, so I think you know, really being as specific with your specific.

Vicky: 44:52

Yeah, do you know? One of my favourite things to do is being able to pass good news on that. I've heard from someone else about seeing something to another individual that the person that was there that experienced it didn't say anything about. I'm like have you told them, do you think you should?

Tracy: 45:13

yeah, I do think that's. There's huge value in that and you know that. Um, you know there's nothing like the, the oxygen of praise to really be people, but just, it always has to be balanced, because you can create a monster if one individual just constantly receives positive praise. They think they're the finished article.

Vicky: 45:36

Yeah, movement, and so none of us ever are. Yeah, balanced, isn't it?

Tracy: 45:41

but also, there's always something that we can do better but that individual is going to then think, well, I'm up for promotion, I'm going to get a massive pay rise. I'm absolutely knocking it out the park. There's no. They never say that there's anything developmental.

Vicky: 45:54

For me, it's always just really great, and so I'm really doing them a disservice there, because there will always be something developmental yeah, well, even Mark Templeton so CEO of Citrix for what 17 years, a long time said he would start the beginning of the year with a reflection on what he was doing well, what he wasn't and where he was going to improve. And he still does that now, and he's on, you know, numerous boards. But that constant um mentality of a growth mindset of what can we do better?

Sam: 46:24

so yeah, no, that that absolutely makes loads of sense I suppose the only thing that I would add or ask is you know, I was always a great believer in um, you know, positive feedback, loud and public, and negative feedback, constructive criticism, discreetly and in the background. Do you broadly speaking, do you agree with that?

Tracy: 46:50

Broadly. I think you just need to make sure you're being fair and equitable with your loud and proud, To ensure that you're not creating a hero and everyone else feels that they're in the shade and this person's in the light. So broadly I agree with you. You, I absolutely do not believe in public shaming and I don't believe in blame. I think you know everybody shows up trying to be the best version of themselves and sometimes we get it right and sometimes we need a bit of help to sharpen our focus, to be a bit better.

Tracy: 47:19

But yeah, do it in that psychologically safe space in in private, in a discreet way, for sure.

Vicky: 47:25

Yeah I have one caveat to that of the of the public and and it's people being late to meetings. If people are late to meetings, um having the clarity of the importance of them being late and the impact of it publicly, and then knowing that if they do it again we very often have they have to. So at citrix we used to have to do the teapot song if we were late, so we weren't late, um I'm a little teapot, short and stout yeah, that one.

Vicky: 48:01

Um, I've had other clients recently that have suggested that yoga poses if people are coming late. But do you know what? They're not late, but it's having that clarity and we talk about accountability of if you've got clarity and expectations are set correctly. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's the odd occasion where people but this was people consistently late and disrespectful of people.

Sam: 48:25

It is disrespectful. I mean, you know it's hard, isn't it? Because you know, often people have back-to-back meetings or there are emergency things to deal with or whatever.

Tracy: 48:33

But yeah, if it's the same person consistently then yeah, I would advocate for a, a conversation with the individual, rather than a call out of a teapot song or or, because what we don't know, we can't read people's minds. We don't know if something pretty awful has happened. That's that morning, so being able to frame it positively by saying thank you for joining. It's a shame you've missed the first few minutes. I'll try and catch you up.

Sam: 49:00

So you're actually calling it out, but you're calling it out yeah yeah, as, as opposed to thanks for joining us it's really nice for you to make the time or thanks for popping in or something.

Vicky: 49:11

It's a consummate professional, which is why you're on this podcast.

Sam: 49:17

Tracy, have you got any takeaways for us?

Tracy: 49:20

I think, if I was to kind of think of my top three, it's set, set the example. Give feedback professionally, regularly, specifically and visibly. Um. You know, if the, if the person that's receiving it sees that your good intentions, you're reliable, it'll always have an impact. And make sure you show what good looks like. Um. So to your point of the, you know, arriving to meetings on time, make sure you do it. Yeah, what it looks like. Um. So just make sure that you. You frame it as an ongoing process and at the root of it is kindness and respect. You know, treat everyone you encounter as you'd like to be treated yourself. Kindness is a strength and it's contagious. So I think that you know that oxygen of praise, the investment of feedback, will just fuel your people and your business.

Sam: 50:08

Yeah, fabulous. Makes sense and any book recommendations?

Tracy: 50:15

It was a coaching book. It's Shirzad Chamine who was really enlightening about understanding your saboteurs, and I am a big fan of Brené brown, so Atlas of the Heart is a great one for me.

Sam: 50:31

Fabulous, thank you.

Vicky: 50:32

Thank you, anything, anything to add oh, just this has just been wonderful. Thank you so much yeah, brilliant.

Sam: 50:39

Nice to have you back, Tracy.

Tracy: 50:42

It's really not like not a chore at all.

Sam: 50:44

So we'll have you back on in another, however long it was exactly, maybe not quite so long this time thanks so much cheers. So just remains for me to say thanks, as always, for listening to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group. Your comments and your subscriptions, as always, are gratefully received.