The Joy of Home Grown Talent - Sam Mudd Managing Director, Phoenix Software

This podcast maybe just a 'chat' between friends, but there is no getting away from what is at the heart of Phoenix's success - it is it's people and culture with Sam as the driving force.

Sam shares with us, just how important it is to get the culture right, to create the caring and  trusting environment with clear purpose and vision  that enables  talent to grow and take on new responsibilities. How this  not only helps  with talent retention but is the secret behind their business success.

We  nearly called the episode the importance of having fun at work so that should give  you an idea of the tone of the podcast!   We hope you enjoy listening to it as much as we did recording it! The #GetAmplified Crew

We would love you to follow us on LinkedIn! 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/amplified-group/

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:10

Welcome to Get Amplified from the Amplified Group, the podcast for tech industry leaders and aspiring leaders who want to help their companies execute faster. As always, we're virtual. I'm at home in Buckinghamshire. Vicky's indeed in deepest darkest Oxfordshire. So, Vic, who have we got on the podcast today?

Vic 0:27

Well, today I'm going to ask the person that I'm about to introduce to put their fingers in their ears because they might just be like, oh gosh, Vic, really. So I have wanted this guest since we started the podcast because I just have so much respect for them. And I have learned and often repeat a lot of things that I heard from them on the VMware Partner Advisory Council in the past. And I have so much respect because they're so articulate, so smart, but also demonstrate for me what a woman in business should be like because they're tough but seriously kind with it. Our guest is Sam Mudd from Phoenix. So Sam is the MD of Phoenix, and I've known her for a long time. And as we were just warming up to start the recording, she just said, this is just like having a coffee with two friends. So that is, I think, how the podcast is going to go today. I say I wanted her on the podcast when we started out. Recently, we recorded a podcast with Rebecca Fox, and the title of that podcast was Kind Girls Can Get the Corner Office. And it was great to have Rebecca on. But actually, having somebody from the tech industry, as that is our target audience, is so important. And hence the topic that we're going to talk about today is if you look after your people, you can enjoy the business results. And Sam, I'm really looking forward to hearing just how you lead the team at Phoenix.

Speaker 1 2:11

Thank you, Vicki, and thank you, Sam. I'm absolutely honoured and delighted to be your guest. And I promise I haven't paid Vicky to say those really kind words. So from one kind duty to another kind lady, I'm I I graciously uh accept your your kind introduction.

Speaker 2 2:32

Brilliant. It's a total love in today because I have very happy memories of both of you ladies from the uh the VMware Partner Advisory Council and all the all the good work that we did keeping the Americans in check, which is mostly what we were responsible for, I felt. So Sam, would you mind by perhaps giving us a potted career history? You know, I I know you from your your your Phoenix days, but how did you get to where you are?

Speaker 1 2:56

Sure. Oh, thank you, Sam. Yes, um, so I'm currently the managing director of Phoenix Software. I joined the organisation nearly 18 years ago, having had my second child, and I was looking for a a new challenge. I'll I'll come back to that in a minute. But in terms of a potted history, I can go back as far as being a 19-year-old student who had just completed her A levels and I was taking a gap year. And I'd gone out to Tenerife to sell some timeshares, run out of money, came home by Christmas, at which point my father and my mum said, So what are you going to do with the rest of your gap year? And I didn't really have a plan. And uh my father said, Well, you're not, you're not lying around for the next nine months before you go off to university. Um, I'm starting up a software company. Uh, you can come and work for me. So that that that was supposed to be a short-term gig. Uh, and I was going to work my way through some yellow pages and start phoning up people and asking them if they wanted to buy a copy of SuperCalc for £99 or something along those lines. It, you know, it was it was uh quite new stuff at the time. Remembering we're talking probably the 1989, 1990, it was the uh beginning of the explosion of uh PCs landing on desks and people needing software to run on those PCs. That's really funny.

Speaker 2 4:19

I was sitting here smiling because that sounds very much like my startup SoftCat. But admittedly, that was a few years later, and it and it was you know, it was early iterations of Microsoft Office, but you know, very similar. There's the phone book, phone some people and tell them they need to buy some software.

Speaker 1 4:35

Exactly. You know, it was it was uh it was fantastic. And my father had started this this company, um, and I was working with three other women, and we were literally just you know pounding the phones, and we were starting to hit targets and uh you know, move on a year or two. We really started to build up a fantastic business that was focused on certain sectors, police, NHS, and so on. And I've I had a flair for selling. I didn't know it, you know, when I went into it, but but I was really loving it. Uh at this point, um, I'd hit targets, I had a little company car, I was going out and seeing customers and I enjoyed all of that bit. Um, and then I got a call from my father one day who called me into his office and said, You're fired. And I said, What? What are you talking about? And he said, No, no, no. He said, This was never the plan. You were supposed to go to university. And if you don't, you're going to regret this for the rest of your life. I just know it, and I would hate to be responsible for you never having done the degree that you you so passionately wanted to do, which was psychology. So anyway, I said, You're joking me. And he wasn't, he fired me. And off I went to Nottingham. I did my degree in psychology, thoroughly enjoyed all of that, but I carried on working in IT throughout that period because I'd at that time then got a small flat and a mortgage and I had bills and outgoings. So I cut, I negotiated with my father actually and said, Look, I'll go off to university, but I want to come back and still work, you know, uh in the holidays. I need I need money and I want to keep my my toe in the water with IT. So that's what I did. And then at the end of it, um I was hired by Word Perfect, looking for a channel manager, uh, a northern rep. So that just suited me perfectly because I wanted to break free from the family business, if you want to call it that, and get on with my own career. And that's that's that's what I've done ever since. I'm really proud that my father gave me that kick up the bum, if you like, and fired me, Alan Sugar style. And uh I'm I'm pleased that everything I've achieved since then, I can credit my own, you know, sort of effort and determination, uh, you know, with with with having focused on what I wanted. So WordPerfect hired me, became a rep on the road, uh, if you like, a warrior, up and down uh into Scotland, back down to to Weybridge in Surrey. Uh, then we were bought by Nivelle. And to cut a long story short, eventually I worked my way up to become the uh the UK channel manager, reporting into the then general manager, which was fantastic. You know, I working with the team and you know, running all of our platinum partners and loving the tech side, working with the technical teams as well. I was really highly invested in all of that and thought, this is it, I've found I found my passion. However, it wasn't conducive to having a family. And at that point, I had married my husband. We live in Yorkshire, and I was on the road on a Sunday, staying in hotels till Thursday. Um there was no way we were going to be able to have a family, you know, in those um circumstances. So I relocated my career back up north and had a short stint at Trustmark as the sales director before Phoenix uh swooped in and said, actually, we'd love you to head up our solution sales. Um, you know, we we have a strategy for going forward with technical solutions, but we need somebody to come and drive that forward. Are you interested? And that suited me. And that that's pretty much the potted history, if you like, of how I how I ended up at Phoenix coming in, and that was joining joining them in 2003.

Speaker 2 8:03

Is your dad's business still going?

Speaker 1 8:06

Well, he sold the business, uh, bought the business back again, sold it. He's been retired for for uh crikey 19 years, um, so well out of it now. Uh, but but that business, as as as you probably know, became part of uh capita.

Speaker 3 8:25

So okay.

Speaker 1 8:26

Software corporation became Trust Smart. TrustMart was then the the capital entity.

Speaker 2 8:32

Uh yeah, okay. So some of that kind of predates my tenure, so it's good to have that cleared up. I didn't necessarily know that right around.

Speaker 1 8:40

Yeah, and it's interesting that I think people don't know why there's such a concentration of software resellers in York, but it absolutely goes back to those early days. My father's business, Software Corporation, was the first software reseller to start up. And then quickly within the same year, you had Software Box Phoenix uh that started up. And they were really all spin-offs, if you like, from having been part of Aslan in the early days.

Speaker 2 9:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 9:05

I could give you other company names before that hardware corporation and amalgamation of lots of other companies. Um, but but that is the reason why there is such a concentration of IT companies in York. It goes right back to those 1990 uh people, those founding people that that came out of that business.

Speaker 2 9:22

That's really interesting. Yeah, I can see how one business might beget further businesses. I I remember, I mean, this is relatively early days of SoftCat, maybe four or five years into Martin's involvement. And we were the management team or the director team were remarking on the fact that they were ex-computer center people absolutely bluming everywhere throughout the industry. And I I think it was me, but it could well have been somebody else. Martin, you think in years to come there'll be soft cat people everywhere, you know, in senior roles and running their own business. And he looked at looked at us, he said, you lot of rubbish. Typical marketing management style.

Speaker 1 10:06

Yeah, yeah, and and loyal, and loyal to the softcaps.

Speaker 2 10:10

Yeah. Love it, love it. So you're clearly as passionate about Phoenix as I am about about softcaps. What makes it special?

Speaker 1 10:18

Most people are going to say it's it's it's the staff. And I I I think you could almost go back to the founders of the company, which was two women. And you know, they they put people at the heart of everything they they they were doing back then, which was rather unique actually, you know, in a cutthroat PC era that were um, you know, most companies were being run by men. Here were two women that had decided to go into a business they they didn't really know a lot about, and and and off they went, and they started to enjoy success. And I think they were incredibly grateful for all of the people that worked with them, which largely were women. So that that Phoenix DNA, I I absolutely credit it back to um those days, Suzanne Marshall and Jan Drinkle, who are now both retired. But um just if I can give you an example of you know how they treated the staff. When I joined Phoenix back in 2003, I'd only been with the company two months, so call it eight weeks, and they announced that they were taking all the managers off uh to South Africa, to Cape Town for a weekend break, and then a safari, and you know, all of this was going to go on within a matter of weeks in the new year. And I thought, well, that possibly can't involve me because I've only just joined the company, you know, what how on earth would I be eligible for that? And anyway, they they did take me and they shipped out 20 managers on this fantastic trip. Um, and they did multiple type of events like that throughout the year. And and for me, that was that was rather nice to see because whilst I'd enjoyed some of that at World Perfect and Navelle, you didn't, well, I didn't see a lot of that, you know, as a channel manager going on in the channel at the time. You know, we've tried to continue that same emphasis of let the staff know that they're highly valued. We've got an awful lot of long-standing members that have been there 10 years, 15, 25, as well as all of the new recruits, the young talent coming through. And there's a real blend of that. But I think that stability and people that have demonstrated loyalty. Some people have left us and they've come back again, you know, that sort of collegiate culture is something that really is special at Phoenix. And and I say that because I'm proud of it, but I also hear vendors come and go and say, you know, God, it's great here, you know. And it's hard to put your finger on it because we get on with it, we collaborate, we we try and do business the best way we know how to do it, but clearly there's there's some ingredient there that other people look at and think, I, you know, that's good. That's good.

Speaker 2 12:50

It's not dissimilar to the SoftCat ethos, really, is it? You know, two very similar organizations. And yeah, a lot of companies, particularly maybe in vendor land, those trips and incentives and things are focused on the salespeople. Whereas it sounds sounds like for you guys it was much more than salespeople. For softcats, it always was, you know, not just those were the target, but you know, IT, purchasing, finance people would go based on how good a job they did. And I I thought that was great. It wasn't just the you know the the top people who were earning the big bucks anyway.

Speaker 1 13:25

No, absolutely. You know, you could be the developer that's been there supporting the systems for the last 20 years, or or or or the HR manager.

Speaker 2 13:33

Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Vicky, you look like you're about to say something.

Vic 13:39

Yeah. Enjoying this.

Speaker 2 13:42

So you you came on board um to start the solutions business. What were your priorities when you first started?

Speaker 1 13:49

Oh, well, if I if I could sort of jump jump forward a few years, I think I think I think I came in and I was just head down doing my job. It was it was technically to try and drive um more confidence on the sales side of the business to to match the technical capability. And of course, we you know we we ramped up our commitment to some very strategic vendors like VMware and and Microsoft in that process. But I think the the real catalyst for me prioritizing and putting my my print on the business came just over three years ago, where I I mean, I've been given the MD responsibility and status prior to that with with the old owners. But the the culture was still being driven, if you like, in in that continued fashion. And when Bytes acquired us uh back in 2017, Neil Murphy, who's who's now our uh group CEO, had said to me in the management team at the time, he said, Look, Sam, just get on and run the business. You know what works, you do what you need to do to lift the lid on this. And that was just a fantastic sort of green light for me to get on and do everything I I had been wanting to do for many years before that, if I'm brutally honest, Sam. And and and it was about restating the values, the culture, uh, empowering people, getting the right people on the bus and getting some people off it. So had to make some difficult decisions, if I'm if I'm honest, you know.

Speaker 2 15:21

It happens occasionally.

Speaker 1 15:22

Yep. Um, you know, good people, but you know, in terms of where we needed to go as a business and and what we needed to achieve, we had to restructure. And I I would actually say that it's it's taken two years for us to really move the needle and to look back and see the transformation that we've we've gone through in the you know in that period. And that's that's why for me, the 2017, that watershed moment of bite-spying us, and then you know, the potential that we had within the business being realized, people that I knew had the talent, and I just had to give them the authority to get on and do the job. I knew that get on and do it, and and forget the old ways, but this was a new era, and and to move all that forward, and to supplement that with some training and a vision and you know the direction.

Speaker 2 16:12

And some invest some investment in the right people and that. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. What do you think was holding you back?

Speaker 1 16:19

Certainly not understanding the landscape of change that was going on in IT, the shift towards cloud, the aggressive need to uh invest in managed services and lots of other value-add areas, uh, an immense need to trust the staff and scale and grow and get ready for the next level of growth. But you know, for me, that the writing was on the wall, some very specific and intentional changes needed to be made in the business, or I was going to lose interest as well. There was a combination of things that that made for compelling reason to look at where we were going, who we were, and what our destiny was. Now, Phoenix has always been focused on public sector, you know, that has been our identity. But I doubled down on that. The moment Bytes bought us, that was a wonderful opportunity for us to say, what is our purpose? What do we stand for? And you know, why should customers come to Phoenix? And we actually dispensed of our corporate business. We thought, look, Bytes can do a better job with that. Why don't we you know, being who we know we are and what we do very well? And that's paid dividends because all we've done over the last three years is go more subvertical, more intently in into those sectors with more passion and with more drive for customer outcomes. So again, that comes back to when I had the opportunity to restate our vision and our ambition, it was to give us that very clear identity. And once you've got that story, once you've got that ability to communicate clearly with your staff and your customers, it's then a case of just recommunicating, recommunicating, you know, how you're performing against that vision.

Speaker 2 18:01

Until it becomes gospel truth.

Vic 18:03

That's so good to hear. And if I relate that, I mean, obviously the Amplified group is in its infancy in comparison with what you've just described there, Sam. It's taken us three years, I think, to really figure out what it is that we do and where we we drive the most value. And it's only now that we've figured out that actually what we do is we help tech companies execute faster. We know we can work with other teams in other in other verticals, but actually, this is where we know we can make the biggest difference. And so we're saying no to other other business. So yeah, that's really good to hear.

Speaker 1 18:40

Yeah, no, know what you do well, and yeah, but yeah. Sounds simple, doesn't it?

Vic 18:46

But it is simplicity, is one of our key things, it has to be keep it simple.

Speaker 1 18:50

Yeah.

Vic 18:51

Mark Templeton said on on the podcast that we recorded with him the more simple you make things, the faster you can go. Yeah, we are sticking with that.

Speaker 2 19:00

So, I mean, you know, we've kind of covered an awful lot of that, but culture, that's clearly the most important thing within a business, in your opinion.

Speaker 1 19:10

Yeah, yeah. The culture is something you want to preserve, it's something you want to protect, it's something I talk relentlessly about, you know, when I'm hiring people. It's it's about the work hard ethic, but we'll have fun, we'll collaborate and support one another. We want people to walk through the door and give us their best. We we don't want them to be afraid when they come to work. We want them to try things, they can make mistakes. You know, that's okay. We can move on, we learn, we'll develop, we'll invest. And, you know, all of that for me are the ingredients of culture that attracts people that want to thrive and wants they want to develop, they want to improve. It's also okay, by the way, for people to just carry on doing what they do for many, many years. Not everybody has to be aspirational and be and want to be a CEO or or a divisional leader. But generally what we want to do is excite people and we want them to bring passion to work. And and and that's that's culture, isn't it? You know, it's yes, how do you relate to your colleagues? How do I relate to my boss? How do I communicate, you know, to the staff? Does everyone feel comfortable to be who they are? Can they be authentic? If I turn up to work every day and Sam's authentic, well, that's okay for everybody else to be the same.

Vic 20:28

It sets the tone. Yeah. And I think you you do do that. That you know, that's why we wanted you on the podcast. It's because you just set such a great example.

Speaker 1 20:36

Well, I try not to take myself too seriously. I'm not the most intelligent person on this planet, I never will be, but I work hard and I'll respect people and I'll do my best and I'll give 110% every day. And I think if you show up and demonstrate that day after day, the stuff the staff, you know, get confidence, they're confident in it.

Vic 20:57

Yeah. And it's not a lip service, it's seeing it and believing it versus just hearing it.

Speaker 2 21:02

And people feel that they let you down if they let themselves down.

Speaker 1 21:06

Yeah, and and and do it with humility. You know, I mean, you you two will both know. I I I love humour. I I I rarely can get through a meeting uh, you know, internally without fits of giggles, throwing throwing a little statement here or there, or pulling a joke. Even, you know, it's to me, that's the fun of interacting, you know, with other people, the banter, the, you know, go round. All of that. Yeah. I mean, I I just don't take anything too seriously because I want every moment to be enjoyable for myself, the staff, the customers, the suppliers. Um, you know, you want to go to bed on a night and think, yeah, that was a good day. Yeah, I enjoyed that.

Vic 21:45

I think that we should change the title of this podcast to make every every moment at work enjoyable.

Speaker 2 21:50

Yeah, maybe.

Vic 21:51

That's a good title. Make it count. Yeah. Make it count. Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:56

So one thing that's interesting is obviously my experience. We never acquired, we never sold, we never, you know, we never did that sort of thing. It was all organic growth. So you've been through a pretty significant period of change where the the founders of the business and those who originally set the tone have gone, presumably completely, albeit having left it left a legacy that to some extent you carry on as shaping it, you know, with your own vision, and then you've become part of another organization entirely, albeit I'm given to understand that you are you you continue to be run as a discrete entity. That's a lot of change though for the people within that business to go through. How do you keep the kind of the trust going, the empowerment going? How do you keep people on board through all of that?

Speaker 1 22:42

Yeah, really good question, Sam. That that was top of my mind.

Speaker 2 22:46

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 22:48

As spikes were acquiring, because obviously I've been involved in the the due diligence, and you know, I I knew Neil Murphy, Keith Richardson, and and uh you know other key members of the leadership team. So I I knew that actually there was a lot of synergy culturally. We were very, very similar. Uh anyone that knows Neil will know that he's he's got fantastic character, he's great fun, similar to Martin Halliwell. You know, they just get on and do the job, but they do it in a very down-to-earth way. In fact, Neal even used to call himself chief entertainment officer. He saw his job to turn up to work and you know make sure every day was was fun. So, how did I help the transition in into being part of the Bytes group? I communicated and I did my utmost to keep stability along with the transformation going in parallel. Now that it might sound like an oxymoron that, you know, how do you do transformation and stability? Well, you can if you've got consistent messaging and consistent values, and you know, you are explaining why you're doing certain things within the business, and as long as you take your senior leadership team with you, so you make sure they're fully briefed, that they're on the bus and they know where the bus's journey is going to and all the rest of it. And if anyone's not comfortable with that, that's that's okay. You know, that's the time to say, well, maybe you should get off the bus and and you know, go do what you want to do. In the early days, a couple of key personnel changes, which were dealt with, I think, quite swiftly. And then we allowed everything to settle down. And then it was about the talent from within the business stepping up. And when you've got people that have done jobs and you promote from within, there's an awful lot of trust, I think, already established between the staff and those members that are now stepping up to take more responsibility. And that also demonstrates to people at the start of their career, perhaps that ah, there is development opportunity within this company.

Vic 24:46

I can progress.

Speaker 1 24:48

Promoted, yeah. So I actually there's a good feel factor here with I can see stuff moving far better than this stale organization that's flat. And people are sat there thinking, I'd love to do more, I'd like to step up, I'd like to widen my responsibilities, but I don't know how to do it. So for me, this was all an opportunity to get that movement going. And we've had incredible success from the promotions from within. People that had not done jobs that they're now doing before, but I knew they could do it.

Speaker 2 25:20

If I believed in that, I mean I've I've watched the ascent of Ben Rayner. Yes, who I don't know uh what role he came in to do for you guys initially, but you know, I knew I knew him as a techie. You know, he was a he was a a tech for a service partner that we used, and now he's your director of solutions or something like that.

Speaker 1 25:40

Director of managed services now, Sam. Yeah, yeah, we've widened his responsibility.

Speaker 2 25:44

Yeah, you're right. You know, really, really, really good guy. And yeah, you know, he was all he always had that entrepreneurial spirit, and you know, you and the Phoenix team have clearly spotted that in him and harnessed it off, he's gone.

Speaker 1 25:58

So so beyond Ben Rayner, I've I've probably got 20 or more examples like that, Sam. You know, of people that have been loyal, understand the business, understand what we're trying to achieve, and the the vision, and they want to be a part of how us get there. So, no, it's it's it's been wonderful. That's been the most enjoyable thing, I think, out of the transformation journey that we've been on.

Speaker 2 26:20

So that thing that kind of covers, I suppose, retention to some extent. What about hiring? You have to hire the fit culture, clearly. That's a difficult thing to do, I know, from bitter experience.

Speaker 1 26:31

Yes, yeah, I we don't get it right all the time, but I think we've learnt over the years. Well, we know what works at Phoenix. We we know attitudinally, you know, the type of person that's going to fit. We spend an awful lot of time in the selection process, in the interviewing to make sure we're very clear about the job role and our expectations and you know what knowledge would be required. And if there's any gaps, how we'll fill those gaps, how we'll train or we'll, you know, we'll supplement them. So I think largely it's a big bet, you know, when you put somebody in a seat at a table, it's a risk both ways, right? So we need to get it right because it's a massive investment of time on our part, doesn't matter whether you're talking junior or senior role, and equally on the person who's looking to be hired, it's it's a big bet for them where they place their career. So we're always very grateful when somebody joins Phoenix because at that point I know we've done our due diligence and we think they're right. And if we have to sometimes wait to fill a role, you know, I'll often say to staff, if if they're not right, just wait. The right person will come along. We don't need to rush at this. Um, and I think that that has been our fatal mistake in the past. You know, you knee-jerk into quickly, we need to fill that role, we need to scale, we need more people, and you you quickly rush to market. And the the homegrown talent has for us been really lovely to see, bringing in young people, training them and watching them divert their career, maybe into different departments within the business, step up, take more responsibility. But the homegrown talent allows us to retain. If if we can keep giving promotions to people, you're less likely to have that churn of going out to market, finding a competitor's uh equivalent, bringing them in, finding culturally they don't fit or they think they know better and all of that. We all know the risks. So yeah, hiring is hard, but I do think with the pandemic and the lockdown recently, actually, this is maybe a great segue for some more questions, we've widened our geographical thinking on where where people should reside. Because we're in single headquarters in Pocklington, and we used to think that everybody had to be Yorkshire based, live near the office, commute into the office, you know, that was the R DNA. And we've hired people around the country now, we've onboarded them remotely, and that has worked. So I think that's given us confidence to to just think about hiring differently in the future.

Vic 29:04

Yeah, it's funny how the pandemic's done that, isn't it? Because when when I first started doing what I'm doing now, I said I've got an ambition to work in Buckinghamshire. I said I've had global roles, I've had European roles, and now not just want to work in the UK, I just want to work in Buckinghamshire. And funnily enough, through the pandemic, well, clearly Buckinghamshire wasn't our audience for the tech audience that we're now in, but through the pandemic, we've gone global again. And this podcast, even, we were in the charts in India and Australia and China, America. It's just got it's just mad how different things.

Speaker 2 29:37

You're not you're not in C1A every every uh month Sunday night.

Vic 29:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's lovely.

Speaker 2 29:44

Brilliant. Um, so one of the themes that has run through previous episodes of GetHampside is is employee well-being, something I'm sure we're all very keen on. It's been a funny period from a mental health standpoint, I think. You know, not wanting to hark back to the pandemic hark on too much about the pandemic, but you know, chunk of rapid changes in the business, and then a you know, a worldwide event that's completely confused everything. When culture's that important, you know, you're sort of tearing people asunder and making them work over little screens and things like that. How do you cope with all of that?

Speaker 1 30:18

Well, thankfully, we we had already started looking carefully at uh mental health as a theme. We'd already signed up to mind, we were uh educating our leaders uh last summer. This is the the summer before the pandemic hit, around these areas and how managers should in their one-to-ones be looking out for certain signals. So, in some respects, I feel we'd already started that journey to let the staff know that it mattered and we were communicating back to all staff. So, so the point at which you know the pandemic kicked in, had to send everybody home, it just ramped up our utter desire to make sure everybody was okay. And I can remember on that first day when we literally had to send the email to say Boris has made the announcement, you know, everybody vacate the building, you know, get your equipment, get your laptops, go home, and we will be in touch. I literally filmed that message on my phone in my office, and I could remember, I can remember being quite emotional about it, but you know, I I wanted to tell the staff it was going to be okay, and you know, to look after themselves and their family, and you know, we would get through this. And that and that was just my first instinct was to reach out quickly to everybody and just tell them we'd all be okay. Now, I didn't know back then, because this was March. Here we are nearly a year on, and I'd still be doing these videos. Which but but you know, I think that that just sort of illustrates hopefully the culture in Phoenix that we'd fostered, which is we care, we all want to look after each other. And um, you know, lots of other companies have done the same. I'm not I'm not saying we're unique, but it was then a case of, you know, what can we do at certain points throughout the year to to make the staff know that we're thinking about them. So we've we've been thinking up, you know, things like little care packages, what do we do at Christmas? What do we do at our 30th anniversary because we were supposed to have a big party that was cancelled? Okay, we shipped a box of champagne out, we've held virtual parties, we've done an awful lot of what other companies have done, and we've all showcased it on LinkedIn and social media. So I'm not I am not saying we're special, but from the get-go, that theme was we care and we're going to keep in contact. And and and that was my my mantra. So little things like um, not every week, but almost every week, I will send a TED talk out to all the staff and say, look, here's something you might find interesting if you have the time to watch. And I'll just pick out themes that I think might help them, you know, throughout think about things in a different way. We also have dedicated a senior member of staff who was in our HR department to become the employee engagement and welfare officer. And his sole role every day is to make sure all of our staff are okay. And he's putting in calls to people um, you know, Monday through to Friday, catching up and making sure people are okay. And also with with new new staff when we onboard them virtually.

Speaker 2 33:33

This is well, that's really difficult. That's a hot totally a whole new world, isn't it?

Speaker 1 33:37

Yeah, yeah. And and we've had to work really hard at that, you know, with a we we had, thank goodness, a learning management system already in place where it was well stocked with all the collateral and the tutorials and everything we would want to train somebody on. But that in itself is is quite clinical. So we've got to make sure that the interactions going on, and and you know, we dedicated, as I say, this senior member of staff to to make sure everybody's okay. We've set up networks which we were already running ad hoc uh around diversity, mental health, and other things, but we've we've coordinated them so that they're now run by staff members, and then the staff can find a voice to tell the business how we should improve. And so we're we're on a journey, if you like. I don't ever see as being the done deal. I am always looking for improvements, and the staff are the first to tell us where where we can get those improvements, those those quick wins, which is wonderful.

Speaker 2 34:36

And the yeah, the um and the environment involves, and you know, we might get to the bottom of mental health to some extent, but we'll be on to the next thing that we need to fix that we didn't know we needed to fix, which is you know, it's it's all good because it makes you know it moves things forward and makes businesses better. The what the way I the way I see it with that stuff is you know, you've got a I don't know whether you call it cultural credit or emotional credit or whatever, and an organization like Phoenix for 25 years building that up, and you know, you've got so much credit in the bank, and then the pandemic comes in and it starts to debit from that bank account. Yes, it's you know, you but fortunately for you guys and and for soft care and for for others, I hope, you know, you've built up enough credit to weather the storm until hopefully June or July, and we'll start to get you know, you can top that bank up with online events and acts and things like that. It's not quite the same as getting everybody together and having fun, but I I fear for organizations who haven't got that or didn't have that credit in the bank in February, March last year.

Speaker 1 35:46

You're right, Sam, and I feel like that, if I'm honest, with some of the new starters. So for members of staff that have been with us 10 or 20 or 30 years, you know, and and and suddenly they hit a lull, you know, whatever, problems in their life, you've you've had that historical knowledge to know that this is this is quite unique, or they're dealing with a very special situation and you want to support them to the hill. Of course, when you're hiring new people, you don't know them as well. So it's incumbent on the manager to get get to know them fast. But you you you're absolutely right. I mean, it's almost we're a 30-year-old company trying to have a startup mentality.

Speaker 2 36:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. I get yeah, really difficult with new people because they come in at zero. So if they have a tough time, they'd rapidly go into their cultural or their emotional overdraft, as it were.

unknown 36:35

Yeah.

Speaker 2 36:35

Yeah, they're really interesting. Well, I mean, it seems like you're doing a fantastic job, and the business is stronger than ever by the sounds of things.

Speaker 1 36:44

Well, yes, it is, in the sense that, well, let's let's talk about the two the two elements here. Um from a an employee engagement point of view, yes, because we've run surveys, best companies, consecutive years running. We, you know, we've we've we've done one within the last six months, and employee engagement has been extremely high. And even within a pandemic, you know, we've had some exceptional results. So thank goodness, that was a massive relief for me. However, we take that feedback and we constantly are working on it and trying to improve, like I've just said. So that's that's the people side, you know, the staff, the most important bit, the most expensive asset that walks through the door every day. And then there's the business results that you know you drive off the back of that. And thankfully, uh we've had a we've had a very robust year, and we will be wrapping up our financial year uh in a matter of days. And I'm delighted with you know the growth in revenue, um, the operating profit, which I'm not allowed to do PLC. But but more than that, we've been hiring, we've been hiring people throughout the pandemic. And I think that's a really important signal to the outside world and and to our staff, because as we we've hit pinch points, shall I call it that, you know, where people have been stressed or we've been um you know hitting bottlenecks in the business. Our way of dealing with that has been to say to the staff, we'll look after you, let us go and hire more people to come and help. We don't want you getting ill, we don't want you working, you know, stupid hours, keeling over, making yourself ill. Please let us go and hire in some more people now and we'll we'll scale this business. And that that is important, I think. This the pandemic has certainly taught us to really look after the staff more than we we were probably doing a year ago. We thought we were being caring, but now we are super laser focused on is everybody okay? Are we all fit? Are we all fit for the match? If you if you know, because Sam, isn't it? You turn up every day, it's it's it's it's hard.

Speaker 2 38:45

That that that makes sense. You know, and it and if you get that right through a pandemic period, which it sounds like you have done, you have every opportunity to slingshot ahead even further once things start to normalize, I reckon.

Speaker 1 38:58

Hopefully, hopefully, yeah, but you never know what's around the corner.

Speaker 2 39:01

Do you know you never know, you never know what's true? Yeah, and and I guess your public sector focus has been been a positive because you know I know public sector has been strong, there's been some investment there, and you know, long may that continue.

Speaker 1 39:11

Yeah, really interesting. So yeah, no, we've we've we've we've tried to step up and we've tried to serve public sector as best as we could, you know, all of the verticals that we represent. We've we've intimately stepped forward and been passionate about trying to not just do stuff for for the bottom line, but to go beyond and and be generous with our support to them, really help them get through this tough year. For example, char charities, you know, it's it's that's one of our subsectors that we've presided over for decades. They're having an awful time. And um, you know, we've we've kind of dedicated a lot of resource and time and effort to just tool them up, give them as much advice, give them access to free software wherever it's available from Microsoft and you know other uh other organizations. And and that that has been our endeavor this year because you just know that years down the line, that that loyal food it'll it'll come back somehow.

Speaker 2 40:08

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Treat your customers well and they'll buy stuff off you when they possibly can. You know, that's a a good mantra to have.

Vic 40:15

You know, I've been thinking about a blog that I'm writing, an article that I'm writing at the minute, and the article is headed up, Should I Change My Title to Chief Caring Officer? And actually, having just heard what you've just talked about, Sam, it is about caring, isn't it, for for your staff and for your customers?

Speaker 1 40:34

Yeah, I suppose my my passion is for people, and that's it is my fact I did a degree in psychology. I just I just love people. And so as long as we're all interested in the welfare of one another and we all want the best for each other, we will all succeed and produce great results. So you you start with the people and the rest should follow.

Vic 40:56

Hello, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. Well, you're well, you're you're proofing that. So I'm I'm really looking forward to hearing in a month or so's time how your year end has gone, because that's going to be the proof in the pudding for you, isn't it? Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 41:09

As will the next two, three years. Yeah.

Vic 41:14

The longevity of it and it being sustainable.

Speaker 2 41:17

Exactly, really.

Speaker 1 41:18

Absolutely. And that and and again, you know, that goes back to the point I think I was making. You know, you just you need to make sure that staff don't burn out. This has been a tough year. Yeah. Um at our laptops, we could all work 12 hours a day, seven days a week, or more if we wanted. I'm not sure that's conducive to space.

Speaker 2 41:38

I'm mostly retired and it's been a tough year for me.

Vic 41:41

Yeah, you're not allowed to say that.

Speaker 2 41:46

It's all good. It's all good. So we we should uh probably start to draw this to a conclusion and give you back some time to uh go and finalise your uh end of financial year stuff. Um clearly that stuff is important. Do you want to help us wrap up wrap up by giving us maybe three three key takeaways on building culture?

Speaker 1 42:04

Yeah, I think build the trust with your leadership team and the staff, communicate highly, communicate consistently, and be authentic.

Vic 42:16

That was so concise. You see? Well, how did I start this? I said, Sam is so articulate. You know, we've had some really incredible guests on Sam, but nobody has wrapped up their three takeaways as articulately as that.

Speaker 2 42:34

She's obviously she's obviously bored with this, Vicky, and I can't say I'm blame her.

Speaker 1 42:38

It must be that Yorkshire just say it how it is.

Speaker 2 42:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:42

Love it. Yeah, absolutely love it.

Speaker 2 42:46

I'm sure. So, Vicky, before we uh before we wrap it up, um do you want to take us into Hero Time?

Vic 42:53

Yes, thank you. So Hero Time is about just starting to better understand what inspires you, Sam. So we Hero is our little emblem at the Amplified Group. He's a stick man, and it's because we like to turn our clients into heroes. So your hero can be anyone. It really from somebody that's helped you today to someone that's inspired you in the past. So give us an insight.

Speaker 1 43:29

Well, it depends, you know, it depends what book I've read and what you asked me this question.

Vic 43:34

So today, so today.

Speaker 1 43:36

Okay, um I want to say my father, because he he bet on me as a female, you know, at a young age, and yet he fired me, but he's been utterly supportive and interested in me and my career. And he's kept telling me you can do it, just believe in yourself. And and I think. You know, that that kind of devotion from a father you know to a daughter or son is is is is wonderful. Uh same for a mother, you know. Sorry, my my mum is just a supportive, but my my my father was the business role model for me, and I think still to this day, even though he's been retired for two decades, he got me into this industry, so he's my hero. Brilliant.

Speaker 2 44:22

Fair enough. Succinct and concise and elegant once more. Yes. Fantastic. That was brilliant. I mean, obviously, it's great to catch up with you, but that was also totally wonderful. So thank you.

Speaker 1 44:34

No, thank you both.

Speaker 2 44:35

No, it's really appreciative.

Speaker 1 44:36

Like I say, it's been lovely.

Speaker 2 44:37

It remains for me to say thank you to our listeners for joining us on Guest Amplified from the Amplified Group. Your comments and your subscriptions are as always gratefully received.